014 - The Audacity to Follow Our Own Path
Some people might view audacity as the willingness to take bold risks, but sometimes, it can also mean being rude or having disrespectful behavior. Isn’t it interesting that this word can be seen as both a positive and negative quality?
In today’s conversation, we explore these moments in our journey where we found the need to be audacious in following our own path, without having that fear of being judged by the people around us.
What does it mean to have that sense of agency? How do we develop that type of connection to it? Join me as I go on this walk with my partners today, Lisa Hopkins, and a familiar voice from Episode 002, Tambre Leighn.
In This Episode
(00:33) - The two primary definitions of audacity
(05:56) - The need for Lisa to be audacious in her journey
(08:10) - How Lisa responded to her sense of agency
(10:35) - Tambre’s experience with audaciousness
(13:56) - How do we connect to our sense of agency?
(16:53) - The energy of needing to be bigger or push beyond
(21:48) - How my inner voice gives me clarity on the path that I should take
(34:18) - Our strengths are exactly where our weaknesses lie
(44:45) - Weaknesses are gifts
(59:21) - The audacity of being in our own path
Notable Quotes
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“If I'm gonna be curious about something, I just can't jump into doing mode because then I’m just, step, action, outcome, re-evaluate, reassess, which will have a little bit of insight, but it doesn't give me the opportunity to take a breath and say, what else can I do? What else can I bring into this moment as far as a different perspective, a creative idea, a different way of looking at this or perhaps even somebody bringing somebody else into the conversation so that I can expand my awareness, my growth, my skills, my insights? I love the idea of embracing what we might consider weaknesses and asking what can I do differently that might give me not only a different outcome in this situation, but going forward, give me more tools to choose from?”
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“If you think about your strengths as just part of your toolkit, not about your way of being, and then your weaknesses, weaknesses are gifts because you don't attach them to anything. Strengths, you know what you can do, you know what you're expected to do. So there's this sort of expectation. I mean, have you ever played something and you sort of preface it with, ‘I'm no good at this’ and you have so much fun because you're not attached to being good at it to anyone thinking.I feel like weaknesses are so ripe, they're like seeds that you don't think will grow. So you just toss them out there. And sometimes they do and sometimes they also help nurture, something grows that you didn't know would grow or maybe it actually helps your strength.”
Our Guests
Lisa Hopkins is an ICF Certified Professional Coach, Energy Leadership Master Practitioner and CORE Performance Dynamics Specialist. She hosts the STOPTIME: Live in the Moment podcast and has a vision to share the power of her coaching work with the entertainment community and beyond by creating safe, mentally & spiritually healthy spaces for all to thrive creatively and become artists of their lives. Lisa is also the founder of Wide Open Stages where she coaches clients to be artists of their own lives | www.wideopenstages.com.
Certified professional coach Tambre Leighn is the founder of Well Beyond Ordinary, a consulting company that helps healthcare clients use coaching skills to improve communication, patient engagement, and build trust. Tambre’s work integrating coaching into patient support was inspired by her experience as a caregiver for her late husband.
Resources & Links
On This Walk
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Luke (00:00:01):
Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.
Welcome once again to On This Walk. Today I wanted to speak about the audacity to follow your own path. Audacity to me is a really interesting word. If you look it up online, you're gonna find two primary definitions. The first is, it's a willingness to take bold risks. I like that. But interestingly enough, the second definition indicates that it might be rude or disrespectful behavior. Isn't that interesting that a word could mean willingness to take those bold risks, but it also holds this error of being rude or disrespectful?
To me, that says a lot. It says a lot about how we consider those that chart their own course, that go out on their own path. Consider the person who turns away from the crowd, the one that goes against the norm. Well, if they're successful, then maybe to those looking around them, we're gonna label them as innovators. They're brave, they're courageous, and yet if they fail, at least in the eyes of others, they might end up getting labeled as foolish or be an outcast of some sorts. The judgment is placed on the result of their path, not the bold choice or journey that they have chosen. And thus the trap. You see, social acceptance, that more predictable road, the judgment of others ends up playing a really big part because it's safer. It has a higher probability of resulting in that sense of belonging that we wish to feel as well as that sense of acceptance, it's less of a risk. This is judged. It's a so-called smart way to go. And yet years, if not decades later, we find ourselves longing, longing to be who we truly are, to brush off the expectations of others and show ourselves regardless of the world, that we can live true to our true selves. But it takes audacity, daring, and perhaps a bit of boldness in the face of those who will judge us. It feels like a big risk, like a leap away from the crowds and even family and friends. And yet it should be the most natural thing in the world and the path, ideally, that we would praise others for, regardless of the outcome, cheering them on as well as willing to lend them a hand or even a gentle ear whenever they need it. Audacity to follow your own path is the journey, the process and the goal unto itself.
It's a way of living and being that we turn around, we start to look within before we look anywhere else within our lives. It's about paying attention to that still small voice, that inner guide, that teacher, soul and spirit, and feeling like we're in alignment with that path. And yet it requires audacity. And so I wanted to invite two individuals on that I felt could speak to this so incredibly well. The first of which is Lisa Hopkins. Lisa is an ICF certified professional coach, energy leadership master, practitioner and core dynamic specialist. She's a dedicated life-long learner who's been trained in positive psychology and mental fitness and continues her ongoing studies in mental health, mindfulness, and spirituality. I'll be honest, right now I feel like I'm reading some of my own background. Well respected for excellence as an educator in the performing arts. She remains in demand as a teacher, creative advisor, and even event curator. Lisa is a passionate, creative, professional with over 25 years of experience working in the performing arts industry as a director, choreographer, producer, writer, dance educator. She also hosts the very popular podcast, STOPTIME, and has a vision to share the power of her coaching work with the entertainment community and beyond by creating safe, mentally and spiritually healthy spaces for all those to thrive creatively and become artists in their own lives.
And then I also wanted to invite back another guest of ours who you are familiar with, Tambre Leighn. Tambre is also a certified professional coach and is the founder of Well Beyond Ordinary, it's consulting company that helps healthcare clients use coaching skills to improve communications, patient engagement, as well as build trust, so vital. Tambre's work, integrating coaching into patient support was inspired by her experience as a caregiver to her late husband. And with that, let's go on this walk.
So then, uh, Tambre and Lisa, thank you so much for being here on this walk. And you know, after talking about audacity, introducing it the way that I have around those boldness to take risks, but also in the face of potentially those risks being viewed, uh, in some rude or disrespectful way, I'm just kind of curious about your own respective paths. Meaning where is it that you have found that need to be audacious within your own journeys? And so if I give just that big invitation as it were to tell a little bit of that story from that audacious angle, I'd like to open that up for you guys and maybe Lisa if we begin with you.
Lisa (00:05:13):
Yeah, audacity is huge. And I love, I love what you talked about with the sort of juxtaposition of the two meanings, right? And two things existing at once. And I identify so, so strongly with that because in my life I think it would be fair to say that from the outside, some people would view me as audacious. You talked about the need to be audacious and I don't think I've ever felt the need to be audacious, but I absolutely feel that in my life, particularly as an adult person. Although if we go back, I can feel it growing as a young person, right? If I look back now with the perspective I have. But to answer your question, the implication that audacious is something to break away from rather than to step into or to open up for, I think that's where I've always come from. I've remarked on when people would say, Wow, you know, you're so dot, dot dot. Fill in maverick, fill in lucky, fill in brave, fill in loud. It's so ironic to me, a) because as a young person, I never spoken until spoken to. I was absolutely an observer and I still am, but my own sense of agency, that's what I like to call it, my inner agent. It's funny, I just wrote about this. It came to me as an opportunity saying you can do whatever you wanna do. And at 16 I received this message and because, you know, I was 16 and I was really into dance, I had to, you know, attach it to something. So I was like, cool. I heard the voice and I said, I will dance, and dance I did. So off I went to New York City and I pursued it. I was not the best dancer. I had no green card. I really couldn't audition for things, but I was going because I could do anything. I heard the voice loud and clear. Now in the seat that I sit in, I realize that, that was what I call agency as opposed to, not as opposed to, maybe it's, and we can talk about that, I'd love to know your guys' thoughts about how that fits into, you know, the other A word. Right? And I realize now that the agency is with me in no matter what I do, it's not what I do. I wasn't bold to go to New York. I mean, sure, I mean someone else might say I was, I wanted to go to New York. So I went, I didn't deserve a a medal for that. I wanted to be a coach. So I trained, I studied, I learned, still learning, still training, still studying. These are choices I make. I don't think they're audacious. I think they're open. I'd rather be a gate opener than to sort of rebel against the gatekeepers. I don't think about gatekeepers. I'm, I'm my only gatekeeper.
Luke (00:07:51):
Let me ask you about two things before Tambre, I bring you in here. One is, if you could just say a little bit more about having received that message. That's something that I, we hear on this show multiple times. I've used it at times on this show. And so I'm curious what, you know, what form did that take or what did that mean to you? What, what did it mean to receive that
message?
Lisa (00:08:10):
It was visceral. It was literally just a feeling, a random feeling. I wasn't trying to do anything. I was sitting at lunch on the floor in my high school. It's so ironic, we're here talking about it. Or is it because I literally just wrote about this. It came to me, this memory again of, of sitting there and I remember telling it to my students. I never knew how to explain the lesson. It was more just like it came to me, which is, yeah, I would always sort of, as a young person, it bothered me when people said I was just lucky, right place, right time, all these sort of flatitudes about how things happen. So there was no big romantic moment or whatever. And it's almost in retrospect that I know what it is. It just felt like a clear message. I looked back at the date like at, what was happening in the world around that time as I was researching the article for myself. Cause I was thinking, what's the context here? Right? And I was wondering and curious to know if it's around the time that John Lennon was assassinated, and it was. And I think that triggered the sort of bigger thinking about life. I don't know.
Luke (00:09:06):
Even in that, I mean you just say it's, it's maybe not the big so-called cinematic or romantic moment or, or what have you. But I think maybe it's why I wanted to ask is that I hear this often enough and I hear the other side of that in people that have written to me or side conversations or otherwise of people who felt, whether it's that message or that nudge to lean into something or to move in a certain direction to open up into something. And they didn't lean into it because something in them did not allow them to access that agency at that time. There was something that was chipping away at them from being able to do that. And so I just wanna be able to acknowledge it's not always the parting of the sea, burning bush kind of moment, right? It can be sitting on the gymnasium floor when you're 16, 17 years old.
If for me it can be out, you know, hanging out with a tree because those are some of my best friends in the world. It can be any number of things, right? And so it doesn't have to be the big moment, but it's to pay attention to what those messages are, those nudges even are. And even to just follow them to whatever degree you can open yourself up to. Maybe you don't take the full move, but maybe you just begin to, to make that direction. There's something else, but I actually, that you mentioned, uh, but I wanna come back to it. Tambre let me, let me just kind of turn to you and certainly just kind of the same question of, of you know, where is it that you have felt that audaciousness need to rise? Uh, but also feel free to jump in on anything you've heard so far.
Tambre (00:10:29):
Sure. Thanks, Luke. And thanks for having me as well. I'm looking forward to this conversation with the two of you. It's interesting because as I was reflecting on what Lisa was saying, I would say my, you know, my beginning experience with audaciousness and messages and things like that was almost the flip opposite where I just showed up in the world as me until I was about seven years old and me was sunny and me was loud and I have a very loud laugh and the message about audaciousness was, how dare you from others? How dare you be so happy? How dare you be so loud? How dare you take up so much room? At least that's how I heard it. And I, you know, basically made a decision that if I wanted to fit in, I really needed to lower the volume.
Couldn't figure out why that was needed, but I just didn't fit in being as a, I guess, you know, they, they saw me as audacious. And so I, I really feel like I folded in on myself for quite, quite a while and held back. But over time I noticed that there were just moments when I had enough of it and I wanted what I wanted. I wanted to get on the cheerleading squad. I wanted to join the gymnastics team. You know, I wanted to try out for Ice Follies, all of these things. And, and those were the moments where I was able, I, I think to just step into really fully being who I am and being willing to take those big risks. So it took me a while to get back to owning that quality in myself, that ability in myself to use audacity in an empowering way and not in the self-judgment way of how dare you be so, and like Lisa says, dot dot dot. So that was really kind of my first, uh, the unfolding of that experience for me.
Luke (00:12:15):
It's funny cause it's, there's so much that I can see in the little bit both of you have shared where it's like, oh, I totally can identify with that. Oh no, I can totally identify with that. Even though you described kind of two completely different paths. Uh, cause I recognize some of this just from, you know, from my own journey. And I guess it's the, the question that, that, or the kind of the, the thing that stood out to me was when I wanted it bad enough, I was like, I was willing to go for it. I was willing to take that. And in the way that, that Lisa you described it, was that because dance was already there for you. It was like, no, I wanna go to New York. You said you attached it to dance as something I wanted to come back, you know, because that's what was present for you in that, at that point in your life.
But it was like, once you were clear, this is where I'm going, then all of a sudden it's like the forces kind of aligned behind you to send you in that direction. And I guess I just am really curious for both of your insights of, it's like, why do we have to get to that point? Why do we have to like, let it build up to the point? And, and maybe I, I Tambre I'll use your language more specifically of, you know, I needed to finally want it bad enough that I was willing to go after it. I've seen that with different individuals and clients that I've had, whether it could be anything, it could be shifting out of a bad job or even a, a relationship that is no longer healthy for them or what have you. And it's almost like, you know, we just, we've gotta wait until it has built up.
And then it's like, okay, now I'm gonna go and now I'm ready to, to muster that sense of agency. And so I'm just curious for, for both of your thoughts as to how do we bring that agency in? How do we connect to that sense of agency earlier? Because maybe we'll choose to stay, maybe we'll choose to say, you know what, this part of our chapter of our lives isn't done yet and I'm okay with the fact that it's not right. I wanna lean into it. That's okay. But it almost feels like we're waiting to really, truly access that point of agency.
Tambre (00:13:56):
The interesting thing about what I'm hearing and what, what you're saying, you know, and how I look at the experience that I'm, I'm having even that now presently, is that that kind of process creates a very uneven experience of living. So it's almost like living in a space of toleration for a certain period of time. And then there, that being that moment, whatever that is, that flips us over to, no, I'm not settling anymore. This is what I want. And what I'm looking at right now is how do I stay more consistently in that place of just going for the best life possible and not letting the fear, the internal fear of, you know, what might happen, what might go wrong or fear about judgment or things like that, hold me back so that I can have a more even experience. And then I'm curious what happens like with the audacity piece because I don't necessarily need that extra fiery energy of audacity. It just becomes who I am every day.
Luke (00:15:02):
Lisa, how about for yourself? How do you see this?
Lisa (00:15:05):
It's really interesting because what really comes up for me big and strong is that there was no countering anything. There was no, screw it, I'm gonna do it or damn it at all. So it wasn't a moment where I woke up. It wasn't like an awakening. I feel like in many ways, again, with my wider lens of being able to look back on myself, I just don't see it as an if-then thing or a now I'm gonna change or I need to have it all the time. I, I really honestly feel, and I've struggled with this, ironically, not struggled. I just recognize it and know it. But even going into the coaching training, you know, that sort of, okay, let's talk about the voices in your head. Let's find your gremlin. When I had to do that gremlin assignment, holy cow. It's not that I was so self actualized at all, but it's just my perception, I think of the moment, always felt I trusted it. I guess I, and whether that's trusting myself or trusting the moment, trust comes back again. And so people again ascribe it to confidence or to where did that come from? My parents used to say, Oh my God, after you went to New York. I was always that confident. I maybe didn't operate in that way. Or maybe there were other things at play, you know, that we need to do when we're younger. Like, and I'm not saying snuff it because as what Tambre was saying, which is I don't need fire. I've always had fire. I certainly don't need audacity. And I think again, for me, it's not a breaking away from, it's an entering into. And I think what it connects to, which is probably why I teach and I coach, is I wanna share it. I want to tap into that so that others can as well.
Luke (00:16:49):
Let's talk about this distinction Lisa made a bit further. It's not a breaking away from, it's an entering into. This energy of breaking away from or even overcoming is often how we orient ourselves based on what we want to move past to leave or to change about a given situation or aspect of ourselves. It's this energy of needing to be bigger or push beyond. I know I've encountered and embraces energy on many occasions. I also know at times how much energy it seems to use up in the process, how much fire I needed to generate to sort of convince myself that I can do this. I've got this. I'm enough here in this moment. And I also know, how in addition to whatever I was trying to overcome or break away from, this perspective was also ushering in self doubt, fear, and anxiety. Because it was like I needed to be bigger than whatever it was that I was facing.
However, trust, confidence, or even faith came so much easier when I'd view things as entering into. Entering into a new belief, a new perspective, a new way of being, a new way of showing up, a new way of putting voice to my experiences or sharing that voice. See, entering into, it felt like inviting, welcoming, and it didn't feel overwhelming. It just felt like a step, not a leap. Even though very often it was a leap. So consider this for a moment. Consider something that maybe you've been struggling with, a situation, you know it's time to leave or change, an aspect of how you're showing up that isn't leading where you wanna be. Whatever it is, whatever that situation is, consider what are you trying to break away from? What are you trying to overcome or transcend? Watch your energy and what it does as you frame it this way, notice what it's like to relate to the situation from this lens.
Notice what's going on in your body. This can be a huge cue for the way that you're feeling at any given moment really, because is your body now at ease or did it tense? Did it open up or did it tighten? Did it come alive or does it feel a bit drained as you think about overcoming or breaking away from, do you feel lighter or heavier? Now let's switch. And instead of thinking of what you're breaking away from this time, I want you to focus on what you're entering into. So as you begin to move past whatever this situation is, consider what are you entering into? What are you being invited into? What are you becoming? What's emerging? What's present that's drawing you forward? Again, watch what your energy does as you consider your situation from this frame. How does it feel different? Trust, confidence, faith for me has been this entering into and not about what I was breaking away from.
Whenever I was focused more on the breaking away from or moving away from, once I got far enough away, I lost motivation. I lost momentum because the pain I was moving away from was no longer felt. I didn't have that pain to stir me up and I'd ease up or leg off a bit until that pain, meaning the doubts, the fears, the anxieties would creep back in. It was almost like I needed the pain to stay motivated. But when I focused on what I was entering into, it was like something was being birthed and was now being nurtured, growing and expanding. It's easier to sustain that. And it often gives me a more macro or longer term view so that if in any given moment I feel like I'm getting down, I can step back up the mountain as it were and see that bigger view again of what I'm entering into. So again, for this situation, whatever it may be, or maybe even just generally in life with where you're at right now, what are you entering into for yourself? What is emerging or drawing you forward? Pay attention to those calls of the soul because they can lead you to great things. Now let's rejoin our walk with Lisa and Tambre.
Maybe I'm gonna ask you to expand then from this sense because you, you brought up agency multiple times and, and initially, and I'm curious then maybe you could speak to your sense of agency and maybe, maybe if I use, use this as as an example for my own path, is that I have found this, it's interesting, this has actually gotten, talked about on a previous, couple previous episodes, that when we are reaching for audacity, when we're reaching for trust in ourselves, there's usually some component of fear or risk that's entered. Cause it feels like we need to, to overcome, or to move, or to even to open up into. And at the same time, when I am able to kind of sit quietly with my own experience, with my own thoughts, with my own contemplation, to really truly just understand and see what's going on, to be able to ask those questions about what is it that I'm really looking for from this particular situation? What is it that maybe I need that I have not been addressing? What is it that maybe I want that I have been unwilling to go after or have been too tunnel-visioned on? So any number of different questions. And ultimately, that inner voice, right, which, which I also would call part of my agency, starts to speak through and give me clarity around this just is what it is for you. This is just the path. You want to go this way or it's going to be this or it's going to be that. And then it's no longer a question of trust. It's no longer a question of audacious. It's no longer a question of, is this right? All of those questions kind of fade because it's just, this is what it is, let's, let's go.
And so for me, I guess tapping into that agency is usually through some form of, at this point it's, it's a bit more contemplative. It's about being able to be in that space and open up that space to be able to tap into it, uh, and to see what's really, really going on at any given time. And then, like you said, there's other times where I don't go through that process because it doesn't feel audacious, it doesn't feel like I need to trust myself. It just is, and you just go. And so Lisa, I'm curious if you could just share when, you know, when we talk about, you talk about that sense of agency and you've described it as, it's also that perspective of opening up for, as opposed to breaking away from. Tell me about that sense of agency. How do you develop that type of connection and how, you know, what does that look like for you?
Lisa (00:23:05):
It's always been there and you just listen, you take the time to listen.
Luke (00:23:10):
When you take that time to listen, what is it that's beginning to come through for you?
Lisa (00:23:14):
I think that there's so much noise in the world and let alone noise in our head, right? I mean, I recently read something about our brain is only able to handle 30 years ago or whatever, when people got news and stuff like that. The statistic goes that we hear more in one day than our recent ancestors had to deal within a lifetime. So when you lived in a, in a small town, it was your inner circle, it was your family. That's what you'd hear about. If someone didn't feel well, someone was upset, maybe you'd hear about, you know, a friend's friend and so on and so forth. Now we literally, here and it's, it's actually a statistic, right? So that alone is affecting us, right? Let alone the internal that we all have had since, you know, Marcus Aurelius was writing about it, you know, thousands and thousands of years ago, which is just the internal mess.
So you put those two together, how on earth are you ever gonna be able to hear your inner voice? So I think if you want actual strategy, we could talk about ways of filtering that information, the external information, asking yourself why it's important. Do you wanna know the news because you're afraid? Or do you wanna know the news because you're afraid of when you're in a conversation you're gonna sound stupid because you don't know what's going on? Or what, et cetera, et cetera. So digging into the why of why you do the things externally that you do and taking a hard look at those for sure, that will create a clearing for you to hear the, the other more scary inner voices that you've created and the stories that you've created in yourself. And to start asking questions about those and get curious. I believe curiosity is the number one tool of arriving in a place of greater clarity and connection with yourself and with your agency. But I think it's literally a weeding out and only you can do the weeding of your garden. I mean, it's work.
Luke (00:24:57):
Well said in the sense of, especially right now and you know, from a contextual standpoint that there's so much that we can do to clear all of the information that's coming at us. And, and I mean that's, that's, you know, all the, the general information that we might normally think of, you know, media, social media news, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it's also just everything that we're tapped into so many different people right now and we have all of the different influences at work in family and all these different things that, that surround us right now. And for us to be able to find a way to clear away from that, you know, I think of it in terms of, you know, there are times where I'll sit down to do some writing. I know when I'm sitting down, like the first 500 to a thousand words I'm gonna write are going to be drivel, they're gonna be awful.
I literally just, right, it has to come out because you've gotta go through that clearing type process to be able to just let everything go for a little bit. And then all of a sudden, in the case of, of when we're looking at ourselves, we come face to face with the stories that are running the way that we're perceiving our lives. And those are a lot of the things that we, we tend not to look at, right? We just kind of let them run and we don't take the time and space to be able to see what's really going on here. Is that story something that's leading me to the type of life that I really wish to be living at this time? And so we can then see those and with curiosity slowly begin to, you know, pick those apart or lean into the things that really seem like they're working for us.
And that really, the more that we do that, if I go that step further and then, Tambre, add in anything that, that this brings up for you, is that as we do that and we start to better understand these are the things that feel like they empower our lives, these are the beliefs that fuel the types of stories and types of perceptions that we wish to have that lead to the interactions and the choices that we wish wish to have, we begin to build those like a muscle because now we're, we are consciously saying this is what's working for us. We're consciously saying this is what's producing the type of life that I wish to have. And the more that we do that, to me that's a way of, of building agency. It's a way of consciously kind of deconstructing so that we can consciously choose and to reconstruct the way that we would like to show up in our lives that way. And then it can be more of just a kind of a instinctual or muscle based response because we've now done it, but we've chosen the way that we've done it, as opposed to all of the stories, the clutter, the conditioning that had been there up until, up until that moment, up until that time. Tambre, let me pause there and just see what, because I'm gonna take this in a slightly different direction, but I wanted to see if there's anything that that brought up for you further that you'd love to add onto.
Tambre (00:27:30):
Yeah, I'd just say, you know, the concept or the word agency, well I can listen to it, uh, doesn't resonate with me. It doesn't, you know, and when I think of agency, and this is where, where obviously the limitations of language and our filters and our perspective. So I see it a little bit differently, for me, I guess I would look at agency as that place of knowing of that I'm at choice. So agency not being that certain, you know, I have absolute control over my life. That's how I hear, that's how me personally, I hear agency, I have control over my life more. I'm at choice in the decisions that I make. So that's how I, that would be my perspective on it, and I connect that with the audacity piece in the taking the risks. So when I wanna be unstoppable about something, when I get an idea of something I wanna do, a life change I wanna make, I'm able to step into that space of taking the risk, but I'm clear that I'm making a choice. So when the fear comes up, those inner voices come up. That's one of the places I go to, is wait a second, you made this choice, right? You've thought about it, you researched it, you don't just leap into things. Sometimes I do, but it's usually assessed risk that I take on. And so there's some freedom in that and being able to understand that I've made a choice and in any given moment I can choose something differently.
Luke (00:28:57):
It's interesting because in making that choice and reminding yourself when you know, when things maybe are not going as expected, and so it is more challenging at that particular point based on the path that's been chosen to remind yourself of the choice that's made. That to me there is so much in what you're saying in the sense that it's also reconnecting to you to what was your intention? What was your purpose? What was the meaning of that particular choice? Why were you heading in this direction based on drive or need or outcome? So it connects you to all the things that go into that choice. And I say it that way because it's also, it's not just like, did I make the right choice in the sense of like logically, irrationally? There is so much more energy that goes into it. There is so much more emotion that is also behind a lot of the choices that we're making and the way in which we feel like they are aligned with the type of life that we wanna live, the type of life we wanna create for ourselves.
And so, to remind yourself of the choice that was made, so whether we call it that conscious choice, uh, whether we call it that access to agency, there is something there that is that build up of energy that allows us to continue to move forward in a particular way and feel empowered as we were doing so. The piece that I just wanted to slightly pivot to because it's something that Tambre you mentioned briefly, and this was an offline conversation that we had also had, was that at times when we're, you know, when we're out there and we are moving towards making decisions as to what we wanna move towards within our lives, we think about, and Tambre you used the phrase best life. I wanna be very, like clear in the way that we're talking about this and give some nuance to this because I think there's, we can get caught up so often in trying to be the best, right?
And we wanna be the best at this, we wanna have the best of that, we wanna create the best this and it can have, not saying it should, I'm just saying it can have a performance quality to it. And as both of you are very intricately involved in performance, what I also know, and this is what came from our previous conversation, was that it's not always about what seems best, but it's about the fit that is there that best fit for ourselves. And so, Tambre, if I, if I actually just start with you for a moment. You've been in performance and you've been in production, you've been an athlete, you've kind of been around this performance oriented type of focus and mindset for a really long time. And yet I know a lot of the choices you're making now in life are really more about that best fit for what's there. It's not about what others may seem or, or look like is best. And so I'm just kind of curious, how have you made that shift through the years or how has that been a conscious choice of yours? So that you were looking at what's truly the best fit for me as opposed to just simply thinking of, well what's best here?
Tambre (00:31:41):
I'd say a component that's been present for as long as I can remember in my life is the importance of the experience. So even as a child athlete, I was very clear about my limitations or my strengths and as a competitive athlete, I went out and competed against myself and it was about having the experience. So was there a, a medal or a ribbon or a trophy at the end? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I remember one time having this one particular ride on my horse and it was just amazing. It was like I was floating on air and I thought to myself as the class came to the end, I don't care what the end result is. That experience was everything I could ever ask for. So when I talk about best life, I'm talking about it from an experiential standpoint, not a win lose or you know, having this versus that. It's what experiences are going to give me the quality of life, are going to allow for the inclusion of my values can I create now? So that's what I mean by best.
Luke (00:32:47):
And Lisa, if I ask it from just a slightly different direction, certainly add on any, anything you would like to in, in, in this respect. But when we had spoken offline, I know, you know, you've talked about the way in which you've even approached, uh, some of the productions that you've been involved in and how at any given time part of what you had an eye for was what was going to fit together. So as opposed to looking for what others would deem like the best actor or the best dancer, the best this, the best that. You were always looking at what's actually going to serve the whole of what's there. And I was wondering if you could, you could speak to that. Cause I think there are so many lessons in that for ourselves, just in the way that we approach our lives.
Lisa (00:33:24):
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for that. That's, it's a good reminder, you know, because I really do believe the way we do anything is right the way we do everything. And so when you said that, I thought, hmm, especially in the context of what we're speaking of with audacity, right? I think that's what it is. It's like the poo-poo platter of life, let's say. Just to keep it really light. I mean in any given moment, I really truly believe that despite what your strengths are, despite whether, so in this context, okay, my, one of my strengths, I will, I will admit, I guess, and I say I guess because I don't like labeling, but would be audacity, right? But that's not just one thing, right? It's contextualized and you talked about muscles earlier and I really loved what you were saying, if it's okay, I'll just respond to that and please go back to, so you talked about, it really resonated with me, partly because I'm a dancer, but also with this idea of training your muscles, right?
And, and I think if I heard you correctly, you said maybe once, you know, we get good at the practice, then it will come naturally. I almost red flagged that because I truly believe that our strengths is exactly where our weaknesses lie. Because we default to our strengths just as we default sometimes to, to fear. Those, those of us that are high performers absolutely default to our strengths. And sometimes we can get really miffed when we're going there. a) it doesn't work anymore or b) we don't even realize we're doing it, therefore we're not growing. To sort of fold that into what you're asking me about the way I worked in, I like the example of there are so many talented people, right? So when you're casting a show, there are 2,500 people who are, you know, depends on when you close off the audition, that can fit the role.
And then it comes down to choosing for me anyways, and this is, I can only speak for myself, not the best dancer or the one that could hit the high C, but the one that a) within their own context can bring it all. So I guess we're talking about triple threat, but it's not about talent like that. But that can contribute and then I think about how will that contribute to the whole so that then the experience will be a co-creation so that what actually ends up on stage is not, you know, sort of in our language, a level two director would say, I have this great vision and you're gonna do it this way. Say the line this way Luke, now and you're gonna do it and it'll work, right? But you're not gonna wanna work with me again. Right? I mean probably not.
I mean eventually you might keep going and then the resent, the underlying resentment will build up about, Jesus, like she, you know, the level two leader, right? So I don't think I was ever a level two leader except, and maybe, I don't know if you're listeners know what we're talking about, but you know, that sort of binary leader, right where I win and you lose versus we all win. And my greatest successes have been when again, and I think we shared this, have been when nobody knew specifically, and I didn't need for them to know that it was me that you're sitting next to in the audience that generated this. This is was something that didn't exist before. Not because I created the whole thing, I didn't, but I had the agency and the drive and the passion and the skills to bring it all together.
Someone else could have done it. I mean, I really believe that ideas get visited, you know, sort of in that big magic idea, right? Of they come to all of us and you know, they, they invite us and maybe that's like agency as well, but they, they come to us and they flirt with us. Let's say. I love that sort of analogy of treating a relationship to whether it be creativity or agency or any of these things, mindfulness, whatever it is, as being sexy. Not like a 30 years of marriage and like, oh Jesus, this is the way you always are. But just like, no, no, I wanna, you know, I wanna have an affair with you, an affair with creativity, an affair with life. So all that to say, when you're talking about sort of the poopery of like bringing together different elements to create something new, that's the way I live.
So like I'm really ambitious for sure. So like you, you know, as a, as a podcast or whatever, it becomes very addictive, it's fun, right? I mean I love it, right? So, or and I love to write so, so I wanna go write. I, you know, and, and sometimes you know, little should comes in, I should go now. I should because I want to, is it should or is it want? And sometimes that's where I practice. In the context of this moment, will I create my best? Is do I wanna be writing? Am I gonna write what I wanna write or do I wanna go on my kayak and read? And I really embrace those moments as woo woo as it sounds. Time expands, not only do I get to go on the kayak, but my work is better, my life is better. My relationship with people in my, you know, ordinary, you know, non altruistic life is better.
And I think that's agency, agency isn't about one thing. It's not like go dance in New York. See, me, these sort of, impressionable, ignorant. I think that's what I meant by I applied it to dance. I applied to life. So what I do after this call with us together, I have some ideas, I have a list of things I could do and might do and should do. But I will check in with myself and say where will I be most effective today? I mean that's probably an answer to your earlier question about what's a tool? A tool is to check in with your agent, get the message, no you have to go out for this right now, because. You know, and like Tambre was saying, you know what's in line? The control, Tambre, that you referred to I think is really important because, see, control triggers me a little bit because control to me means something very rigid.
Even if it's coming from me, it means no, my way, I'm doing this and I think agency and if you wanna use it in the literal sense in the performing arts sense, when your agent calls, they think you're right for something so they send you out, right? I mean that's kind of interesting way of thinking. So when you're inner agent and I believe you're agent's always there, you know when their voice is loud through that noise, you can listen in the moment though, like in, like literally in the moment. So not in the big picture. I think we all think meta too much sometimes. I think it's great to think about meta when we're thinking about now, like not, not then, right? So when you, when you go out and go, okay, 10 years from now, when I look back at now, I think that's a great tool, to see the meta.
Luke (00:39:37):
So things I wanted to come back to because you covered a lot with, starting with where you just were, okay, is we can feel at times when we feel like we are using control inside of our lives and moving towards, you know, creating certain structure or these are the things we should be doing or what have you. And what you also spoke to there, which is what I really wanna bring out to everybody is there is this just like this organic, fluid life force that is trying to help guide us at different times and help us respond to what might be best for you in this moment and what might be best that comes out of you if you would honor what you're beginning to feel or what's beginning to move. I love what Lisa, you were saying of, you know, maybe I'll do these tasks or maybe I'm gonna go out on my kayak and read.
And the, the funny thing is, is most of my, hands down, I'm not gonna say most of, hands down, my best writing is usually done on the side of a hiking trail or in my kayak or after a long ride where I'm literally just pulled off on the side of the road somewhere and I'm writing like crazy on my phone. But it's being able to pay attention to what those experiences can connect us to and what that flow of life is connecting us to. And that's when all of a sudden the, all of this other creativity and whatever it is that needs to be moved forward can flow through us. Now I know that may not be quote unquote practical at all times, but it's where can you honor that within your life? Where can you pay heed to that as much as is reasonable for you based on whatever your circumstances may be?
Because the more that you do it, the more that it will find ways of working with whatever the circumstances are. It'll show up more for you. And I wanna come back to this contribution to the whole, but there was one thing that you said in there that I would love for both of you to say more on because you were both, as soon as Lisa said at Tambre, I saw your head going up, shaking right with her was that idea that where your strengths are is also where your weaknesses lie. And I wanted you guys to say, say a little bit more about this because exactly what you were speaking to felt true to me of, I know when I'm leaning on my strengths to over-compensate and if for the moment I'll, I'll use the, the sports analogy, I know that I can go out and shoot a decent game of golf. I also know that I'm doing that purely based on decent athleticism and overcompensating so many weaknesses and just controlling my way to make it work. I'm covering a lot and so I know just using it, you know, that kind of analogy. I know I'm leaning on things but I'm really truly not making the type of improvement that I could be making. So I'd love to, to hear you guys speak just a little bit more, uh, cause I saw such great resonance and uh, when that came up. So maybe Tambre, let me, let me ask you to what you heard out of that and then we'll give Lisa a chance to just follow it up.
Tambre (00:42:11):
Sure. So one of my strengths is being a doer, doer, a planner, a researcher. I know how to get into action. I know how to fulfill a plan and that's my default. What I've learned though is that not every moment requires that or needs that. So I have to pull that back and stop and say, okay, instead of doing, don't jump into doing, you know how to do that. You can figure your way, your way through this. Bring yourself back into the moment and look at the being piece in here. Because sometimes in shifting who I'm being in a situation, how I'm showing up in a situation is going to change so much that whatever I thought previously to do no longer fits. So I mean I absolutely aligned with Lisa when she, when she said that. And then also this concept of, you know, if we always lean on our strengths, we don't give ourselves the opportunity to work on our weaknesses.
So we don't get any stronger with, there's a little bit of a stay in the status quo piece. And to me that can lead to stagnation, limitation of opportunity and a lack of engagement really. And a lack of curiosity. So if I'm gonna be curious about something, I just can't jump into doing mode because then I'm just, you know, it's step, step, step step, action, action, action, action, outcome, reevaluate, reassess, which will have a little bit of maybe insight, but it doesn't give me the opportunity to take a breath and say, what else can I do? What else can I bring into this moment as far as a different perspective, a creative idea, a different way of looking at this or perhaps even somebody else bringing somebody else into the conversation so that I can expand, you know, my awareness, my growth, my skills, my insights. Because some of this can get very internal and very solo. So I love the idea of embracing our, what we might consider weaknesses and asking what can I do differently that might give me not only a different outcome in this situation, but going forward give me more tools to choose from?
Luke (00:44:27):
Nice. Lisa, anything you want to uh, add on there or, or reflect further on?
Lisa (00:44:31):
Yeah, I love that you've finished with saying tools, because that's exactly what I was gonna say. If you think about your strengths as just part of your toolkit, not about your way of being, and then your weaknesses, weaknesses are gifts because you don't attach them to anything. Strengths, you know what you can do, you know what you're expected to do. So there's this, this sort of expectation, I mean, have you ever played something and, and you sort of preface it with I'm no good, good at this and you have so much fun because you're not attached to being good at it to anyone thinking. You know, I feel like weaknesses are so ripe, they're like seeds that you don't think will grow. So you just toss them out there. And sometimes they do and sometimes they also help nurture, you know, something grows that you didn't know would grow or maybe it actually helps your strength.
Which again, you know, there are case studies about athletes, bringing it back to the athlete thing, who really just hit their plateau, you know, who just stop being or feel like they, you stop being able to do what they're gonna do, they're burned out, right? And that go and play another sport that they're not, that they're not supposed to be good at and have so much fun and bring back all of the, you know, the why and the, just all these other elements and then they go back and play and you would think, you know, it's counterintuitive. You think, oh no, taking a year off would be a really bad thing. There are case studies they go back and they're better. Not only are they good at what they used to do, their strengths are still there, they didn't lose them, but they've, they've gained some new things, you know, And I, I think that's huge and I think that since this pandemic, you know, I'm sure there was a moment at which I thought, or I thought people were thinking or you know, I don't know how much of that, you know, everything gets clouded, right?
Where basically I've quote unquote stopped dancing in the way that I dance, not because I'm retired but because my energies are really going, you know, I still dance on in my own way. I'm so curious to get back into the studio proper to see if that, if that is true, right? To see if like, I feel so energized. I mean, yeah, there are, there are certain things, right? Like if you don't keep stretching, which I do or you know, there's certain, you know, actual elements that you can't argue with. I mean, I'm not gonna go out and, with my sense of agency and you know, be an Olympic athlete or you know, work for the New York City Ballet, nor would I have been able to do that at 16. I mean there are certain, you know, truths, right? But when we're talking about making choices in life, in your day, like your day is the only thing that's important because that's all we have.
Luke (00:47:01):
There's a piece here that I also want to lean further into. When you brought up and talked about weaknesses as gifts, some of the way that you, you brought this up as well, Tambre, is that very often you can look at your weaknesses and recognize that that's the very place that you run into discomfort. And it's, that's what we hide from, right? And we can give any number of, you know, excuses as to why we're gonna lean on the strengths, we're gonna do this and we're gonna get the better result and we're gonna all those things, right? That's part of the story. And yet so often it's the things that, that we're shying away from that we may call weaknesses that represent a certain amount of discomfort for us to be able to face and yet lean into why there is that discomfort or what's actually taking place there.
So there's the part that's very practical. We can develop our weaknesses because they can become more tools in our toolbox, all those types of things. There's also the part that there are things that we've turned away from because they were our weakness and represented discomfort that are actually parts of us that we've disowned in the process. And so it, it actually holds us back from the wholeness of who we are. I look at this and in, you know, from, because you, Tambre as you shared, you know, leaning towards doing, you know, sort of resonate with that one. And I think of, you know, when I went back to when I was going to college, uh, going to a university, I ended up going for a degree in marketing. I went to the business school, I was at the same time and I went on, I, I was very fortunate and it, it paid dividends and everything else. I had a very nice business career and all those things. And I was within I'd say a month of making a different decision and going to art school, I was looking at, at all sorts of art and design schools. I had a creative portfolio and had this other complete creative streak. Well, because of the choice that I made, I really actually shut down a lot of that for a long period of time. And I just kept leaning into the business side, the doing side, the let's go side, the achieve side. And there was a part of me that was laying pretty stagnant for a very long period of time. And while I, you know, do little things here and there, that would kind of evoke a little bit of that for me. It was something that I just kept turning away from until at one point in my life it actually was like, well I'm not even sure I can create those things.
I'm not sure I can do those things anymore cause I'd leaned away from it for so, so long. And then finally in turning back to it, it was like, oh wow, I didn't realize how much I had missed that part of myself. And it's like, welcome, welcoming it back home. And so, you know, that, that obviously was a, a bigger choice that I made. But to me there are so many things, there's so many opportunities in what we would call the weakness or the discomfort. Those things that we shy away from that actually can be invitations to step further into parts of ourselves we've disowned and our chance at kind of reclaiming even more and more of our wholeness to be able to say, this is what it is. I'll go off this just to, cause I, I didn't wanna lose this one other thing from something I'd asked Lisa, you, about a while ago, uh, that had to do with fit and how you brought up the idea of contribution.
That it's not always the so-called most talented or the best whatever in a given situation. It's about how does this all fit together? How does it contribute to the whole? And that's also what I look at this as is the more that we bring back all of these different things that contribute, can contribute to our life, the more that we look at not what's best, but what really truly works for me based on that inner sense of self, now that we can create a quality of life that's pretty extraordinary. And very often we realize some of the things that we thought we wanted, we don't really need and we're okay letting them go by the wayside. But it's only when we start to go through this process in a much more intentional way can we start making some of those choices. So let me ask one more piece of this because this also came up in, in a side conversation we all had. And I, I loved where this went. And one of the things that we, that had come up in a conversation for everybody that, that, that we were having had to do was that, once we start to get that better sense of self, once we get to have that better sense of the path that we wanna travel, there can be something very empowering about being able to declare that, meaning to be able to express that out within the world because it can increase that sense of, I really kind of own what I'm stepping into.
And Lisa, you brought up a wonderful counter perspective and this is what I wanted to just chat that little further on before we wrap up today of why do we need to even do that? Why do we need to even declare it to anybody else? Why does anybody else need to know how we've decided this is the way that we're going to live our life? Why not just live the way we wanna live and let others catch up and catch on? And so I was wondering if you could just share a little bit more of, of your perspective, because I loved where that takes us because there again, going back to performance, there seems to be this performative at times side of us that wants to put these things out in the world to be able to say, hey, now look at what I'm doing. Because it allows us to quote unquote step into it even further. But at times we don't need that.
Lisa (00:51:45):
Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, you can never really get enough of what you don't really need, right? Is that the expression? I mean, yeah. I mean I think that's probably what makes me lean away so much from the industry of mindfulness, let's say, which it's become. Because this sort of premise that if you, you know, stick it on your wall and manifest it or that you need to identify a certain way and, and everybody needs to embrace it and know about it, is the very definition of being attached to giving control over to everybody else. I think that, as you said, if you truly are living the way that you choose to live, then people will know. And whether or not they know is irrelevant, you know? I mean it's, people really don't care. That's our story. People really, really don't care.
They just don't. I mean, I think, I think once we realize that, you know, we care what people think and that's the piece no matter what we're doing, you know, but if we really understand that there is a great story, which I wish I could tell and I can't, but it, you know, something about someone in a, maybe you guys know it, but basically, you know, you're wearing a, you know, a sweater or something and you think that everyone's gonna notice, right? And they don't. Or you know, the guy that dresses, oh, I just read this recently. The guy that that got invited I think it's in big magic. So there's a story where, where this artist gets, you know, he's living, you know, living his life in Paris, you know, sort of struggling and doing the whole martyrdom thing and whatever, but he gets sort of tangled up with the aristocracy who find him amusing. And so they, they invite him to this party and it's a big costume ball. And so, so he spends all his time, you know, making his costume and, and really cared about doing it. And he shows up, he rents the car, he does the whole thing, he shows up and the door opens and um, he's dressed as, he has an incredible costume as a lobster, a huge lobster. But what he didn't realize, or, or no one gave him the memo that it was actually meant to be a medieval style or whatever. And so everybody was decked out in jewels and, and he shows up and he had a choice. He had a choice in that moment to jump back in the car and run, to walk in, and actually lots of choices to walk in and apologize or whatever. He decided, I'm here anyways, I drove to, you know, two hours and I'm here. So I'm just gonna, and I love, I love my costume. It's the wrong costume maybe for the event, but whatever. Here it is. And he comes in, he was invited, he come, his name was on the list, he comes in, they weren't laughing at him, you know, this wasn't meant to, they weren't trying to do him. He walks in and then somebody says to him, oh, what's your costume? And he said, I'm the court lobster. And he was so embraced by them and I just love that. Right? Just owning, you know, when you talk about own, I think that's owning. Now he didn't say, I'm gonna go screw with those guys and dress like a lobster when they want me to dress like royalty. That's I think the distinction I'm talking about. You know, where, okay, you don't like my body, I like my body and therefore I'm gonna ram my body into you. Do you know what I mean? Like I think it's that sort of catabolic energy underneath the stepping into yourself. And I think that's where I really think it's not authentic.
Luke (00:54:51):
That's interesting because it's, it's, and, and Tambre, and you could, you could probably add more here. Uh, cause I think you probably have some interesting conversations the way that this actually comes up in healthcare and some type of advocacy work and, and kind of bring people together. But what, at least what you were just saying is, is to me, is being able to, you know, show up fully as we are and that we don't need to profess and declare in other people's face that this is who I am and this is what, you know, what, what I stand for and this is why I believe what I believe and this is why you should believe what I believe. Because there's so much of that that's going on right now as opposed to us holding space. And I, it's something I said all the way back at the very beginning here is to be able to hold that space and to celebrate those that come as the lobster, to be able to celebrate them for entering into that space and not needing to judge and not needing to be the one as the lobster to put it out on everybody else, but instead to create this space where all are honored for the way that they enter. And I guess maybe if, if Tambre, if I just kind of give you a little bit of space, I'm just kind of curious, you know, you've seen this in, in a very, very different setting. You know, taking this a little bit away from the conversation of audacity, but this being able to create this space so that others who have at times very disparate agendas when it comes to healthcare and have very, very different needs and different things that, you know, different needs out of these conversations and circumstances. And if you could just talk to what it's like to be able to bring them together and, and how do you support creating that space so that others can really just truly show up as they need to in those particular moments.
Tambre (00:56:22):
You know, spending over a decade as a patient advocate has really given me an opportunity to interface with a lot of different players in healthcare, patients, caregivers, other fellow advocates, researchers, scientists, physicians, nurses. And then also in my daily work of course, and there is a tunnel vision that happens not out of, you know, it's just that people see the world the way they were trained up. So if I'm a science, you know, researcher and I'm developing a clinical trial, I develop the best protocols for a clinical trial that I know how, based on what I've learned in medical school, based on previous trials, based on what I've learned from other researchers, based on the research questions and goals that I have. But that's not the whole piece. So we're talking about wholeness later or earlier. The wholeness comes in when you bring different conversations in.
So how does the patient see that clinical trial? How does an advocate see that clinical trial? There are going to be things that because, you know, the road of the researcher is one and the road of an advocate or a patient or a caregiver is another. They won't know if as the researcher, you're not willing to not be the expert for the moment in the room. If you're not willing to give up thinking that, you know, maybe you know best for everything, you'll miss out the opportunity to create the best clinical trial because there are things that you can't understand if you haven't walked in those other shoes. That these people are willing to share their experiences to stop and say, wait a second, this protocol is asking the patient to travel three times a week, one hour to a testing site. And some of the side effects that they have, nevermind the costs involved and the time involved in daycare are gonna create barriers and that's going to preclude their involvement in the trial and the feedback and the information and the data that you can get from them. So when we lean on our expertise and when we lean on our strengths, we're back to when we don't embrace the weakness, maybe the perspective that I don't have, then we're missing out on that whole view of the situation and the opportunities to make an even better trial in this case.
Luke (00:58:40):
You know, it's to, to be able to honor all of those different views, to be able to, you know, as the individual to set aside our expertise or, or just our way of viewing life in any given moment and to be able to honor each person for exactly how they enter this moment of life. And I think, you know, using, using what you just described as a kind of a beautiful microcosm where the patient, the doctor, the advocates and, and all these different parties, pharmaceutical company, all these different companies that are involved, all these different people that are involved at any given time to be able to represent, this is where I'm entering this moment from. This is where I'm entering this experience from. And so if I bring that, bring that back as you were, you were doing to, to this audacity to, to be on our own path, it's also remembering to honor this within others to honor the path that they're taking, to honor the challenges that they've been through to honor the, you know, the things that they are showing. You know, there's still probably parts of them that maybe they're not fully showing yet, but to honor the parts of them that they have had the audacity to show you and to thank them for that, it doesn't matter if you agree with them, doesn't matter if you support the direction. I don't care, I don't, it just celebrate the boldness, the audacity they had, they show up in that way. Uh, and I think that, you know, you guys have heard that throughout this call, this, this conversation today is to really begin to embrace that in yourself and the more you begin to embrace it in others as well, the easier it gets for all of us and the easier it even gets for your own path, you'll get more inspired, might even get a few ideas. So I just, I invite everybody to do that. And I want to thank Tambre, Lisa, I wanna thank both of you for being here on this walk for sharing, uh, your audacity, for sharing your agency, for sharing your wisdom, uh, for sharing your experience and your stories, uh, as well as the care and the compassion that you have for being here and sharing all of that with our audience. And so, uh, I thank you both for being here on this walk.
Lisa (01:00:34):
Thank you Luke, and thank you Tambre.
Tambre (01:00:34):
Thank you Luke, and thanks Lisa.
Lisa (01:00:36):
Yeah, it's wonderful being here with you.
Luke (01:00:40):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.