032 - Rediscovering Wholeness – Bringing the Parts Back Together
My guest on today’s walk has experienced burnout personally and has been on a multi-year journey of healing and compassion that brought her back together again.
Avery Thatcher is the CEO and founder of The Truth About Burnout Podcast and the Flow State Membership. When she started her career as a Registered Nurse working in the ICU she noticed that the majority of the reasons people found themselves in the ICU were because of illnesses and diseases that could be linked to chronic stress. She decided to get out of the reactive side of medicine and now helps highly sensitive high achievers prevent burnout and reverse the negative health effects of stress.
After experiencing a significant change of health and severe burnout in 2018, Avery had to learn to redefine her identity and grieve the loss of who she used to be. Now she shares her story openly to help others realize that they are not alone in their struggles and talk about the strategies that helped her heal along the way.
I sit down with Avery to reflect on the dichotomous way of living, the importance of compassion in her own healing, how she came to terms with the sick and hurt side of her personality and turned her health around.
In This Episode
(05:55) – Reflecting on the dichotomous way of living.
(08:35) – The red flag of a toxic ICU.
(12:09) – How Avery started to numb out.
(15:06) – My experiences with burning out.
(21:40) – Going through the five stages of grief in two years.
(23:39) – Coming to terms and working out stuff with the sick Avery.
(27:32) – On changing her name and telling her family.
(35:31) – Asking yourself: What do I actually need?
(37:13) – Measuring achievement in terms of impact and creating.
(42:25) – Discussing labels and satisfying an underlying need.
(44:49) – Bringing awareness around differing values.
(48:51) – Returning to the wholeness and fullness of who we are.
(52:07) – The role of compassion in Avery’s journey.
(57:47) – What makes suffering so challenging?
Notable Quotes
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“This is still a part of me and all of me deserves compassion. And then I wrote to this part of me that is sick. This part of me that is disabled, this part of me that is keeping me from who I used to be, who I identified as. And I said, I love you. Let's figure this out. You are along for the ride. I'm going to work with you rather than against you. And it was at that moment that I realized that I needed to somehow create a fresh start.”
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“Compassion and authenticity aren't an end goal. They're not an outcome. They are a path themselves that's creating. When we create with the same energy that we want in the outcome, that's how we actually get the outcome. Both Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr spoke about how the means and the ends must be one and the same in a sense, and to quote Gandhi specifically, means are ends in the making.”
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[00:00:00] Avery: I could have made those changes early and instead I got stuck in this mentality of I need to make this work. Rather than be like, is this really where I wanna continue to stay?
[00:00:12] Luke: Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart-centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.
Hello there everyone, and welcome once again to On This Walk. Today, I think this is probably the best way for me to begin. You see, I personally, I didn't realize it until I could look in my rear view mirror. However, it was not like I wasn't aware. I knew there was something going on for me for some time.
And so, let me see if this sounds familiar to you before I kind of fill in the gaps here. You get to the end of the day and whatever it is that work or life has brought to you over the past, maybe nine or 10 hours, you just know you're completely fatigued, and it's as if you have been carrying around this extra weight all day.
You've had conversations throughout the day, and yet the ones that are still weighing on you aren't the ones you had with others. It's the conversations you had internally with yourself. You see some of these chats were maybe just your mind racing about how do I keep it all straight? What are all of the priorities that I have, the reminders, the responsibilities, the obligations, but then there's these other chats that we've got going on within ourselves.
Some of them are with this part of ourselves that feels like it wants to express more clearly and openly. It's a feeling that seems like it wants to come out, and yet you found a way of tamping that down very successfully throughout the course of your day. And then there's this one more conversation, this one that seems to be with a distant, almost subtle part of who you are, and it's asking, why are you still doing all this?
Why are you putting yourself through everything you're putting yourself through? This can't be the way. You see these inner dialogues were taking place within me. My external presentation and my internal reality were completely at odds. I felt like I was divided within myself, like I had different parts of me playing out, whether I was at work or with these colleagues, or whether I was at home, or maybe with some other friends.
It felt, I felt like these different parts of me were trying to come out, trying to be seen, but pulling me in different directions, and I felt that way even when I was by myself. There's virtually no way to not burn out when you're feeling this divided. And that was the truth of it. I was divided. I didn't feel like I was complete, whole and unified within myself.
As Parker Palmer described it, it was as if I was living divided. But he also wrote, it's time for us to live divided no more. When we're divided, we have parts of us that are being ruled by our shadower, unconscious. That's the part, the shadow, the unconscious that's making these decisions and driving our lives based on some of our most basic and survival instinct needs.
Even if a lot of our life is pretty well taken care of, we're still operating in that stress response kind of mode. When we're divided, we're living at least two lives. I felt like I was living all sorts of different parts of who it was that I actually was. And we can feel this constant tension, even this friction between the outer and the internal realities that are playing out inside our life.
And so we need to get back home again to be divided no more. And there are quite a few roads that we can take, and that's the conversation that is emerging between myself and my walking partner for today, Avery Thatcher. Avery has experienced this dichotomous living. She's experienced burnout. She's seen it personally as well as in many people around her, especially in healthcare.
And she's also been on a multi-year journey of healing and compassion that brought her back together again. So let me give you her professional background. She's the CEO and founder of The Truth About Burnout Podcast and the Flow State Membership. When she started her career as a registered nurse, she was working in the ICU and she noticed that the majority of reasons that people found themselves in the ICU were because of illnesses and diseases that could be linked to chronic stress.
She decided to get out of the reactive side of medicine and now helps highly sensitive high achievers prevent burnout and reverse the negative health effects of stress. After experiencing a significant change of health and severe burnout in 2018, Avery had to learn to redefine her identity and grieve the loss of who she used to be.
Wow, does that one hit home? Now she shares her story openly to help others realize that they are not alone in their struggles and can talk about the strategies that have helped her heal along the way. For those of you that are new to On This Walk, do me a favor, hit that subscribe button, check in with us, and follow these conversations as we go on many walks every single week on Tuesdays, as well as we've launched a new Facebook community group.
Check out On This Walk on Facebook and continue the conversation that is taking place inside of the online community. And now with all of that out of the way, let's go on this walk with Avery and returning to our whole selves. Avery, how are you?
[00:05:21] Avery: I'm just so grateful to be here, to be having this conversation with you.
[00:05:24] Luke: Let's just dive into your background a little bit first. Cause I think it was one of the things that struck me and obviously is very, very unique as well about your journey, which you can share in a moment, in you you really have kind of faced. This burnout you have faced this feeling of the divided life, or as you've, you've referred to it to me as this dichotomous way of living before, and I'm hoping maybe just to begin, share a little bit of what you were going through when you were back in the ICU, what you were seeing, and then ultimately kind of where you found yourself with the health crisis that you underwent.
[00:05:56] Avery: Absolutely. So I think this whole idea that we're so divided in life and also in ourselves was so present even in a hospital where you have all of these staff that are going through the same kinds of experiences together, but they're still pitting each other against each other. So emerge feels superior to the ICU that feels superior to this unit and everybody seems to have this kind of weird hierarchy, but we're all in it together.
Every different piece of that puzzle is really important. And I read a book that was talking about the importance of community in the workplace and there was this reporter that went into NASA during the big race to the moon, and he was just waiting there for his chance to interview the astronauts.
And he stopped this person in the hallway that was just mopping the floor. And he's just like, oh yeah, you, you work here. What's your role? And he said, getting people to the moon. Because even the NASA experience was so ingrained around this core mission of getting people to the moon, that the person mopping the floors understood their role in that mission.
And I feel like there's so few workplaces that have that experience. And so I had worked in various different ICUs. I was seeing a lot of the same kind of illnesses coming in, and I was doing all of the research because as I've told you before, Luke, I'm a super nerd. I love reading all of the things. So I was just looking at all of these pieces that were bringing people in and thinking I have to do more.
I can't just scoop people up and their families in the most vulnerable days of their lives. I wanna keep them from getting here in the first place. My partner and I, we moved around the country, just different things for different reasons and I ended up in a very, very toxic ICU where that us versus them mentality was very strong between the doctors, between the nurses, between the support staff and their respiratory therapist.
And it was just so mind boggling to me because I’m like, these are people that are very, very sick. Why are we fighting amongst each other and not fighting for them? And it took a very strong emotional toll on me. And so I thought that I was doing the right thing by just moving to night shifts, because then I would avoid the politics I was creating that distance, I felt better.
I thought that was fine. But then ignoring all of those red flags that brought my body to the point where it had enough.
[00:08:28] Luke: Yeah. Can you take me through what some of those red flags were? What were you beginning to see and what were you beginning to ignore?
[00:08:35] Avery: Absolutely. So, yes, it's so interesting, and I heard this said a little while ago, and I found it so powerful that sometimes we miss the red flags because they're pointed at us.
And so we only see this little skinny bit of that flag that we actually miss seeing. A huge piece of red. So I feel like a number of the things were sort of that situation because I was blinding myself to how fatigued I was, how much dread I felt before going in and getting into work, the amount that I removed myself from the community there and distanced myself instead of having our meals together in the lunchroom.
I would go and find a quiet space somewhere else, and so I was really distancing myself from a lot of that extra support and connection because in my experience, the support wasn't there. So those things definitely played a role. My sleep was getting even worse than it normally does. On shift work, my nutrition was starting to get deprioritized.
There were just a number of different things that I chose to not make time for. Plus, at that point, I was also really working on growing my business and I decided to dive fully into that. So my high achiever was like, hey, so I'm obviously not safe to show up as the high achiever in this workplace, so I'm gonna do it somewhere else.
And so then I just gave all of my energy to that and really numbed down any feelings that were those warning signs that I really got to have listened to.
[00:10:08] Luke: There's a lot of interesting things in there that I just want to mention to everybody. Cause I, I also, you know, pick up on a lot of, when I went through burnout myself, some of the things that you're mentioning, there's a lot of the physical components, the fatigue, the nutrition suffering, exercise, suffering, the amount of stress that we just feel like we're walking around with.
But I think a couple other things are really interesting. Are that self isolating, like when we start to pull back to and disconnect from, you know, the people that are in our lives, whether it's at our workplace or elsewhere, that should be a flag to us. Like, why are we doing this? Why are we pushing away?
Now, it's not to say that there may not be intentional reasons for that, but if it's kind of reactive, if it's like, I've gotta, like, I can't deal with this, then you're, you know, there's a very different thing going on there, and this idea of looking for the ways in which we numb out, right? There's the addictive side of those, those qualities, right?
There's all sorts of things that we can get ourselves into to numb out. But there's also, you know, we've talked about it here on this show before, there's social media and there's binging and you know, Netflix and, and Amazon or whatever else you're, you're, you're doing, there's so many different ways of us beginning them out and it's like, why do we want to do that?
Meaning like, isn't what really should be drawing us forward. This feeling like we want to be alive. We want to feel that vitality. And so like we're compounding the issue over and over and over again. The last thing I wanted to call out that you were doing, which is another great sign to me, is to think about, okay, here's where I spent the majority of my time at work, but all of my energy is gonna go in this total other direction.
Like for you it was this other business and it was like, I wanna be over here. And you can just tell like, there's this split that's now beginning to occur in all of these different areas. So I find that very interesting because I felt so many of these things when I was going through this process of why am I dividing myself in these ways?
What am I numbing out on? Why am I numbing out and where am I gonna find that sense of aliveness? So for you, where did it dominate?
[00:12:09] Avery: So the sense of aliveness actually took another two and a half years to really surface itself again. And I think one of the things that today me can look back and see, because hindsight's a jerk and you can look back and be like, ugh.
But one of the things when I'm looking back at it, I was telling myself this story that I had no other choice except to distance myself from politics. But I could have worked somewhere else. I could have made those changes early. And instead I got stuck in this mentality of I need to make this work, rather than be like, is this really where I wanna continue to stay?
And so unfortunately I did not make that decision by myself, but my body did decide that it was time to make a big change. And so I remember it was Christmas morning, I had just come off the 12 hour night shift and the charge nurse looked me in the eye and she said like, oh, you do not look well like, go home, get some sleep.
You don't have to come back tonight. I'll mark you down for being sick. And I slept for 20 hours. And then I slept for 20 hours the next day. And the day after that. And then I went to the doctor just because I thought I had mono, because I had that before. And I was like, it might just have been, who knows? A potluck.
And I shared a spoon with somebody. I don't know. Anyway, I went to the doctor and she was like, what's that on your neck? And I was just like, what? And I, over the course of three months, had grown a huge thyroid mass that was about two and a half inches. And I hadn't even noticed at all.
And that started this health journey of figuring out what is going on, how many things could be related to this? Then I got half my thyroid and that mass removed and then figuring out is it cancer, is it something else? And then realizing that the majority of the symptoms didn't go away after it left.
And really trying to figure all of that out. And throughout all of this, I was holding onto that person that I used to be. Always the hope that I'd be able to go back to that person. And the moment when it hit me that that was never gonna happen, I usually journal on my treadmill at night.
I've got a little desk set up there and I'll just type on my little journaling app and write it all out. And the moment that it landed, the amount of grief that poured out of my body, I could not stand up. It was the deepest ugly cry I think I've had in a decade. And it just all needed to come out in that moment of realizing I was never gonna go back to that person.
[00:15:06] Luke: So which signs have you had, maybe even that you might have right now? And what I mean by that are what are some of the physical signs of what's actually going on within you and underneath the surface of your life right now? You see, for me, let's see, was it maybe the inability to take off any weight regardless of how much I worked out or even eating cleanly didn't matter.
How about the recurring fatigue and that feeling that I needed to push myself through until about every four to six months? I'd get sick for at least three to five days, and it would lay me flat. I did that too. How about the boulder sized knots that kept the feeling of tension across my neck and shoulders about 24/7?
You see, these were just a few. There were more. My body was constantly trying to get my attention that you are burning this too hard. But there was more, there was something else too that was underneath it, and it turns out to be quite common. See, my shoulders had even become more drawn in almost slightly hunched forward.
Even now, it's a bit tough to get that full range of motion in my shoulders and get them to open up and open up my chest. Why is that? Because we quite literally will develop postures that reflect our energy and the baggage we're carrying. My shoulders slump forward, attempting to protect my heart. My shoulders crept upward with the tension they walked around with every single day.
My lower back was consistently tight because of the control that I needed to maintain. Our bodies keep score. There's an ever increasing connection between stress and inflammation, as well as between stress and digestive and gut issues, both of which are proving meaning inflammation and gut issues or, or gut health, both of which are proving to be major, major, early indicators of future disease.
In addition, though, it's not just stress, it's that our bodies hold on to unprocessed energy and emotions. Energy becomes bound up in our tissues, our fascia, our spines, what we repress will get stored in the body. Now it gets repressed for countless reasons, but mostly what's true is that we don't know how to release much of these emotions and experiences in a way that is healthy.
And so we keep them in. We need to turn towards what it is that we feel instead of avoiding those discomforts. Now for me, and I shared this on the very first episode of On This Walk, one of those energies that arose in me looking back at myself and that mirror and my consciousness, was rage. Rage, when it becomes stuck in the body, will usually get stuck at the base of the neck and across the shoulders.
Exactly what I was sharing a moment ago. But how do I release that rage in a way that's safe, that's healthy and responsible? Well, I can tell you how I had been releasing it through little adult tantrums, snide comments, sarcasm, pouting my fist on a counter. When I'd get annoyed with myself or over something that was completely insignificant, I'd work out too hard.
I'd distract myself with even more overworking and so on. You get the picture, you see that energy, it's gonna either leak out, explode, or implode. Either way, we better find a healthier option. So for me, it started with a combination of body and energy workers that could help liberate that bound energy.
You can look at things from energy works like Reiki or Shamanic Energy Healing. You can look at things like Rolfing for release of the fascia or deep tissue releases and I was doing all that. I was working on my joints. I was working on my muscles, deep tissue release. I partnered with some other shamanic energy practitioners and we’d exchange sessions to release the energy from our fields.
All of it helped. And then more recently, I reconnected to the work of Somato Respiratory Integration, or SRI, thanks to an old friend, practitioner and this brilliant men's work mentor, David Mailer. I continue to learn ways to let that energy run through me, to work with it, to receive the gifts that the energies offer us as well.
You see all of these energies, they exist for a reason. They hold gifts, if even to just get our attention to help us course correct as we live our way forward. The funny thing is, the more that these energies clear, the more I learn to work with them as they arise, the clearer my vision gets, the easier it is to be present and connect whatever it is this moment's calling for, I'm calmer. And I'm more settled, and that's not all. My body is actually gaining more flexibility again. I sleep pretty much as well as I ever have in my life. I don't wake up with those kinks and tightness all over my body. I rarely, and I mean, I rarely get sick anymore.
My metabolism and gut health has come back strong, as good as it's ever been. And inflammation is down to negligible levels. Simply put and bluntly put, this shit works if we work it. So I'm gonna start to invite some of these wonderful practitioners and healers onto On This Walk, and you're gonna be hearing from them soon.
But just continue to reflect on the fact that your body is trying to tell you what's going on. Pay attention to the signs, pay attention to the messages that it's sending to you, and start doing a little research into how you can release this energy. You can reference any of the practitioners and modalities that I've referenced before, things like SRI, Reiki, Rolfing, deep tissue massage, any of those types of work, shaman healing, all of these begin to support the release. So with that, let's get back to Avery.
So when we think about, I'm never gonna be that person again. There's also two sides of that story. There's the part that was the one that contributed to all of the stress and all of the burnout side of what was unfolding. But then there's the other part that was the high achiever and the way you knew yourself and the parts that maybe you really, really still loved.
You know, when you start to reflect back on, I'm not gonna be that person and it's time to grieve. I wonder if you can kind of go through that a little bit more. Cause I think it's, you know, it's one thing for us to talk about, but once until you've been there. It's hard to really understand that experience.
So if we could maybe pick that apart a little bit of how did you approach that grieving to really truly let it through and let it out?
[00:21:41] Avery: So when I look back at the whole process from coming off that night shift and trying to figure it all out, I see those five stages of grief moving through the two years that followed.
Even though those stages of grief have been debunked and they're no longer really evidence-based, but I can still see it, I can categorize my experiences into those spaces. So for sure, at the beginning it was denial. I was like, nah, that's okay. I'm gonna go back to the way things were. And I think that's what we do to protect ourselves, to have that hint of guilt.
And to not settle in that, oh yeah, life's changed forever and there's no going back. And then I remember getting into bargaining. I started to Google my symptoms, which is not a good plan. Do not do that. Do not do that. Even if you have a medical background. Cause I looked at it and I was like, yeah, no, not brain tumor.
And I was just like, but maybe this, maybe this. And then I started to bargain with the doctors that were telling me like, no, it's not that. And I was like, oh, but how about this? And they're like, no, not that either. And I was like, shoot. Because all of those things had the quicker fix. Or some kind of management.
And then I remember the moment that it all kind of settled in and I realized that I had to get angry and after about 18 months of going to different doctors trying to get a second opinion, not being happy with the diagnosis that they gave me because that meant that I would never go back to who I saw myself as.
My identity was so wrapped up as being a nurse. Especially being an ICU nurse and then a pediatric ICU nurse. There's like a subspecialty and a specialty. When you say that, it's like a badge of honor. People look at that and they're like, oh, I could never do that job. And I didn't realize at the time how much of a pat on the back.
That really was for me, and I realized what all of that was taken away. I didn't feel valuable. I didn't have worth because I didn't have a purpose. And that was I guess, the equivalent of rock bottom for me. Because again, journaling is a really good way for me to process my feelings. Some people are verbal processors.
My partner's a verbal processor. He loves to just chat and get those things out. But for me, I come from a lot of trauma. And so my personal way of processing has to be very private. So the way I know what I can share when I feel comfortable and I've gotta figure it out. So I started journaling again and I allowed that anger to come out.
And I started getting angry and really angry. And then I was typing so madly, like it was so loud. And I was like, yes, let's get this out. And then the light switch came on and I was like, this is still a part of me. And all of me deserves compassion. And then I wrote to this part of me that is sick, this part of me that is disabled, this part of me that is keeping me from who I used to be, who I identified as, and I said, I love you.
Let's figure this out. You were along for the ride. I'm going to work with you rather than against you. And it was in that moment that I've realized that I needed to somehow create a fresh start.
[00:25:11] Luke: You frame it so, so well of when we recognize that we are no longer gonna be the person that we were, when we recognize that there is so much identity wrapped up in that process and that it's not, oh, well maybe I can't go do those things.
I'm, I can't do this, I can't do this. And there's an element of like, make it about the behavior or make it about this choice or that choice, but it's, there's identity that's wrapped up. And I remember when I, you know, when I started to make some shifts and whatnot for myself, I had been with the company I'd been with for you know.
I guess, so ultimately it was 17 years, I guess at this point. It was, I don't know, 13, 14 years in. And that's already known me and that idea of, okay, now I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna go do something different. And even once I made that decision and started to make those changes, I had mornings where I woke up and I'm like, oh my God, what have I done?
I mean, I, I just really, I just seriously surrendered that how is anybody gonna know me? How do I know myself anymore? And what I know you did because of our other conversations, but you gave yourself space to be able to go there, to be able to figure this out. And, you know, journaling was one of the things that took place within that space.
And for me as well. I will tell journaling also every already who listened to the show. No, I've, I've referenced journaling has been a big part of my process too. And what you described was actually a big part of the process for me as well, which was learning to dialogue with the many different parts of who I am.
Right, and to, to dialogue with that part that was very hurt. The parts of me that still wanted to strive, the parts of me that, you know, wanted to go back to these things and to be able to bring them into dialogue and look at ourselves in this whole system's view of things, as opposed to very often when we go through something like that, it's like, no, I just wanna, I wanna shut that part down and I'm gonna go off in this direction.
It's like, sorry, it's not gonna work that way. It's a transition, right? So you describe that you were able to then start to extend love and compassion to these parts of you. What started to change when you were able to tap back into that? Like what started to unlock when you were able to bring that love and that compassion to the process that you were within?
[00:27:34] Avery: Because I came at it from loving the core person that I am not tied up in, who I connect with, who I'm friends with, what I do. Really that core person, I realized that a lot of who I saw myself as could be let go. And I could let that person go. And so it really did feel like I needed to let Heather die.
And so Heather was the name that I had growing up, and I was Heather for 37 years. After that moment of realizing I needed to really just embrace and love this part of me that has changed my life completely. That I needed to let that person go and I needed the fresh start. And for me that meant changing my name.
And so I searched baby name blogs for, I don't know how long. And just looking for the right name. And the only one that jumped out was Avery. And so I remember one night I was chatting with my partner about this and he's just like, I'm not gonna lie, it makes me uncomfortable. It's weird that this is what you wanna do.
But if this is what you wanna do, I've, I've got your back. And I was shaking like a leaf when I told my family. Cause I didn't know what they were gonna think. They had chosen this name for me. It was no longer my name. What were they gonna think? And they surprised me with how much they embraced the change and how much they understood it. And I am so grateful for that.
[00:29:15] Luke: That's fantastic. So you, you literally make a name change to be a full demarcation of the change of identity. And you're, you now fully are in that spirit, that energy of Avery, when you make that switch, what felt like it unraveled or unentangled for you because that when we go through something that is such a clear demarcation and you know, for me, I mean, I'll, I remember and have held basically the equivalent of burials for different parts of myself to use that as a demarcation, a, a recognition of a ceremony that allowed me to recognize what this true demarcation point was going on in my life.
And I know there was so much that unraveled in that process. I could feel the entanglements beginning to separate as it were. And I'm curious when you make such a change that you did that is also now witnessed, I'm clearly by your family and by your partner and by people around you, what did you feel like started to untangle and unravel with that type of change?
[00:30:20] Avery: So I think there were two main things that came up. One of them was some pretty hardcore fear. Because my business, up until that point, I'd been running it since 2015, and this was 2020 when I made that decision. Up until that point, my business was Heather Thatcher.
Everything was branded that way, and I was just like, oh my gosh. It's gonna be such a process to get everybody. And then I have to tell literally, the world, my corner of the world on social media and all the businesses which I was working with and all my partners and whatever, like all of that had to get out there.
And I was just like, we'll see how they roll with this. And so there was a lot of fear. Make my fear of the process of just like how much work it was gonna take. But what we see a lot of times, especially with fear of the process, is once you get started you realize it's not as bad as you thought.
And I also see the way that my family accepted the name change, a lot of the people that I had created networking partnerships with also accepted it. A number of them even changed my name on the testimonial videos that I had made for them and the testimonial images and things. They went ahead and changed that name for me, which just the first time I saw that, not gonna lie, highly sensitive person over here. I cried because it was just so sweet.
Some of the changes that I noticed internally and the freedom with that was up until that point, when I decided to change my name, a lot of my PTSD symptoms had really, really gotten heightened. I had some really wicked dreams and some dreams also of my colleagues in different ICUs across the country coming to me and saying, where are you?
Why aren't you helping? We're drowning here because this was in the height of the pandemic where the healthcare systems were completely overwhelmed, and I would just wake up in this cold sweat feeling like a failure of a human because my friends needed me, my family needed me, and I couldn't do that.
And so once I decided to change that name, this huge weight that I didn't even realize I was carrying came off my shoulders. The dream stopped. A lot of the PTSD symptoms slowed down and I felt like I had the chance to really look at what I needed rather than fight that, to really work with this new parameter rather than keep trying to figure out how to get things to go back to the way things were. So it was really this huge freedom.
[00:32:54] Luke: So in that freedom you feel this weight dropping from you, can you tell me what you think that weight was?
[00:33:02] Avery: I think it was a lot of expectation. Both from myself, probably mostly from myself if I'm being honest. And then also for some people around, but really the expectation to continue to be the person that I was.
And to continue to be able to keep up with the activities that I used to be able to.
[00:33:22] Luke: And it, so you then connected it to that where you're, you're elaborating now, which is that when that weight drops, that freedom begins to enter and you were able to more clearly connect with what you really needed.
I've faced it and I've helped other people with this. We get so caught up in this combination of what we think we want, which is our strategy to fulfill a need that we probably haven't specifically stated what the actual need is. Or we get caught up in expectation of this is what other people need or they need of me.
And we get into these, these dances of how we're going to satisfy that and, and live within this interrelational world, this interdependent world that we have. And we don't always step back to really sit with, what do I actually need? Like what is really going on for me and what is my heart and my soul calling for at this point?
And then figuring out like, how am I gonna honor that? And I think it's interesting when we put that in the context of identity because you're so clear that your story so clearly illustrates this, is that we get so caught up. Even in our identity, our identity is a bundle of expectations, right? It's a bundle of what we expect of ourselves with other people expect of us we know each of ourselves, how other people know us.
It's this bundle that is all there, and somewhere in the middle of it is where we actually are. And so to be able to shed identity in such a powerful way kind of gives you that moment where it's like, okay, everything is kind of like being let go and you get to actually see yourself again in that place.
It's a very, very beautiful way to come into that essence. I, I guess I'm curious in, in obviously your own story of what you have found, but even with the people that you now support, how do you approach helping people to get down to that level of understanding what they really need.
[00:35:23] Avery: So I think it really starts with understanding what do you see as your identity, and then do you agree with the definitions of those terms that have been imposed on you as you've grown up.
For example, being a high achiever is something that was not only imposed on me growing up, but it's something that I identify as, and I still identify as a high achiever. Even though I literally need to sleep more than the average human. And after this podcast, I'm gonna have to go lie down for an hour.
And I'm okay with that now because I know that's what I need. But how can it be that and be a high achiever if you can't go, go, go, go, go, go, go all the time. So then I realized that what I needed to do is redefine high achievement, and then when you have your own aligned definition of what that looks like for you, then you're able to make the changes and actually live in alignment with that true version of you.
So my definition of high achievement is to be able to create a ripple effect of compassion and authenticity that expands beyond my initial circle of influence. And it is so neat to see when one of my clients comes back to me and they're just like, hey, my mom told her sister that, oh, I think one of your core values is being triggered.
And it started this conversation and now that's spending out, and she's gonna be using core values in her workplace too, as the leader of that team. And so you can see the ripple effect happening. That's where I know that I've done my job as a high achiever. And if I wanna be able to do that, I have to make sure that I am not subscribing to the external definition of high achiever that is not gonna work for me.
[00:37:09] Luke: I just wanted to interject quickly here. Achievement can conjure up material pursuits, getting the promotion, the job title, the house, the car. It can play off some of our human needs for significance or self-worth as well, but it does not need to only be thought of in these ways. Achievement can also be about impact, as well as about creating what Avery just described.
Achieving a ripple effect of compassion and authenticity is actually about both of these. First, when we think about what we wanna achieve, what we are really asking is what do we wanna create in our lives, our relationships, our careers, our health? And when we think about what we want to create, we can place more of our focus on the process rather than the outcomes we want.
Compassion and authenticity aren't an end goal. They're not an outcome. They are a path themselves that's creating. When we create with the same energy that we want in the outcome, that's how we actually get the outcome. Both Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. spoke about how the means and the ends must be one in the same, in a sense.
Meaning, and to quote Gandhi specifically, “Means are ends in the making”. And that brings me to the second part of how we can rethink achievement. Achievement can be about impact, meaning that ripple effect. It can be about what we set in motion about who we touch. It can be all about we and not just me. Both of these start to separate achievement from the usual time-based process of putting in all the hard work all the time.
And then maybe you may just get what you were trying to achieve. We lose so much time and create so much stress, putting ourselves on the hamster wheel, trying to achieve in these old societally blessed paradigm ways. Creation and impact aren't about time, but they are about your energy in the moment.
They're about using your innate design in alignment with who you are and what you wish to bring about in this moment, in this now. Achieve alignment with yourself, with who you innately are and the gifts you are meant to bring about in this world will unfold more effortlessly and that will achieve a life that feels deeply resonant, fulfilling, joyful, and congruent. Now, let's jump back in.
What you just described, I think, is fantastic. So first, for anybody to sit down and work with, what are all of the labels that you still maintain about who you are? High achiever, you know, highly sensitive. Are you somebody who's very, uh, empathetic. Are you a mom, are you a dad? Are you a parent? Are you a spouse?
Or you're this, right. All the different levels we have. And then figuring out, okay, well what is my definition for this? Not the one that's been handed to me, which I think is so important because there's so much conditioning that comes through that. And so for us to be able to choose our own definitions of what this means, looks like, feels like to me.
And then making sure your litmus test is, is that in alignment? Like does that allow me to live and be the way that I wish to? Just as you described that, that high achievement is a form of high impact. Is, is a way that I hear that in my language, right, is it's a very, very high impact based on who you are.
And that is an achievement. It's an incredible achievement. So it's a process by which we can be very conscious of, if I'm gonna use these labels, let me make sure I know what they mean. Let me make sure it's what I mean by those labels and let me make sure that that's something that feels like it's an alignment for me as well.
I think the other part which I wanted to add, and I'm curious how this sits with you or or how you've seen it or how it's played out, is for us to recognize that almost anything that we are doing in this world is ultimately to satisfy an underlying need that's going on. And so I would also encourage people, let's use that high achiever label because it's one, I can put that hat on as well very, very well, is that when I wear that high achievement hat, I also ask myself and what need in me am I addressing? By having that high energy, that high achiever role play out. And so for me, I use that as a way of going even further within to recognize that this is a strategy for me to, to, to meet a deeper need within myself.
For me, it's a need of tying into an expression. It's, it feels like I'm tapping into something that's part of my design. So I feel more connected both to myself as well as what I'm contributing. And I've gotta really kind of sit into it so that if I'm achieving more, it's allowing me to tap into that.
Now, previously achievement was all externally validated, all externally defined, right? And then I worked inward, and so now I work inward and create outward. I'm curious how that sits with you, right? Of helping people recognize that all of these things, even the labels, are effectively strategies that are getting at an even deeper need within ourselves.
How have you found that relationship? How have you found those needs at that level?
[00:42:27] Avery: I completely agree, and I think one of the most important exercises that we can do is to discover those core values. Because you value expression and being able to share that part of you to be able to make that change.
Whereas for me, I value justice. And it's not that you don't value justice, of course, but it's just my driver really is justice. I want people to feel the freedom and the worth and the value that they deserve. Yeah. And it drives me bananas when people just make those snap judgements and decide who is worthy of what.
And so, a lot of my work is really centered around helping people really release that divide, have it be less us versus them. And so I think along with what you were mentioning, really digging into those values and understanding what actually drives you is really important because it also lets you know what's gonna trigger you, what's gonna make you go on the reactive side rather than the objective side.
So then you're able to recognize like, oh yeah, this situation means more to me than it does to this person sitting beside me because our values are different. And then that allows it to be more of a conversation rather than you grabbing onto that emotional freight train and zipping off, because now you're all activated.
[00:43:55] Luke: That's what I wanted to go further into. You're, you're already starting to go there, right? Is that I, so I love that flip, right, of when we recognize those core needs, those core values, it means that these are the things that are gonna mean the most to me, which means there may be the most intensity or energy around these things, which also means that's where we're also gonna find the triggers, the things that upset us, the things that feel like they're rocking that boat in some capacity.
And so what you're doing is you're bringing awareness around the way that we value things differently. You're bringing awareness around, these are the types of circumstances that may elevate my energy at those moments. And now I'm curious for you, what do you do? Like, how do you enter into a deeper conversation that's not about the story or reactive?
But it is about, okay, you value this over here, my value is over here. How do you enter that conversation so that something very different can actually come together as opposed to it being just two competing narratives.
[00:44:51] Avery: So I think the first way that you have to come at these kind of conversations is modeling.
I have to show people that I can recognize when I'm being triggered and say, oops, sorry, I'm overreacting. This is a core value for me. I'm being triggered. I need a minute to just calm down. And so one great example of this is my partner and I, we were out for a walk with our dog and we were getting into something and he was saying, I can't even remember what the topic was, but he said something that triggered me.
I started to get hot right away and I was just like, what? No. And then we were starting to walk and we were walking up this hill, and then I was like, oh. I just realized that I'm being triggered. I'm really sorry. I did not mean those things. Those came out as an activated response. I just need a minute to take a deep breath.
And by the time we made it up to the top of the hill, I felt back in control of my emotions and he felt robbed of an argument. And he said, I feel like you just stole a really good fight for me and I just need a minute. And I was like, that's fair. And that was really the start of that conversation between the two of us.
And it has really opened up a lot. And I also, on social media, I'm very open about when I'm triggered by something. So I still model, okay, so this happened to me today. I felt the mighty rage come up in me. And I was like, who? They do not see it this way because they value different things. So I think a lot of that is modeling for sure.
But then a lot of it also is awareness. Because awareness is always the first step. So if people feel out of control of their emotions in certain situations and they're just like, I don't know why, I'd be like, I do have a look at this list. Tell me what stands out for you. Does whatever really activate you?
Aligned with one of those words, and then it starts the conversation.
[00:46:45] Luke: So one is that, that part of the modeling that you're putting in there is a wonderful level of personal responsibility, right? So it's to, to have the awareness around what it is that's creating the agitation. And then secondarily, to have the responsibility to say, hold on a minute.
I need a moment. I need a breath. Let me separate from the emotional response that was coming up for me in that particular experience. And that begins to enter into a very, very different space because it can be very inviting to somebody and meaning to the other party when they can see you taking responsibility as well as being vulnerable enough to admit this is what's unfolding for me, for me right now.
I think the other thing that you just brought up is, you know, I value it this way. Somebody else obviously doesn't see it that way. They value it very, very differently to tap into that level of awareness. When we are in our more fragmented state, when we're in that dichotomous state where all of these different parts that we haven't been aware of, that we have not defined, that we have not sat with, that we haven't built a relationship with.
When those different parts are in control, the awareness can only be so big. It's gonna be limited to what that part of us can see at that moment in time and more, more likely to get stuck in the story, the narrative of whatever it is that's unfolding. And we're not gonna slow down. We're not gonna take the beat.
I wanted to kind of bring us back to that and bring the, bring everybody back to that is that when we can get to know ourselves and know these different parts and find who we are at the center, even if we identify with high achiever, highly sensitive, or, or whatever it is, that, that are the labels that we use as part of our identity, we are still sitting at the center of that.
Any label is still one step beyond the truth of who we are. And so if we can do that, if we can pull back, we can say, oh, oh, wait a minute. Look at, look at my core values. Oh yeah, that's hitting this piece right here. Hold on, let me take a breath. Right? But if we're in one of the parts too late, we've already moved past that and we're only in that narrative.
So it just reinforces this need to come back to center, this need to come back to the wholeness, the fullness of who it is that we are.
[00:48:53] Avery: Absolutely. And I think when we do that, and when we start to talk about that more, we're gonna realize that a lot of us have the same desires. We all are going after the same things, and we're all on the same purpose and wanna have a similar legacy.
And so even though people may be in different corners of the world, or in a different faith base, or a different political agendas or different sides of the spectrum of anything. We're really all after the same thing, so what if we could just start to see things from that perspective? There was this really powerful video that I saw the other day, and it was actually several years ago.
This woman came on and she's just like, I love you. Whoever's watching this right now, I love you. Someone can decide that they hate me without meeting me. I can decide that I love you without knowing you. And I was like, that is my life motto. Let's make that happen.
[00:49:56] Luke: Yeah. It was part of my own path as well of beginning to recognize just how much we are all after the same things.
We all want to have more of that happiness, that peace, that joy, that love. We all want less of the pain and the hurt and the discomfort of things, but if we're able to recognize not only that, that's what all people are after. A few things. One is that. If we don't need to run from the pain, the hurt, the discomfort, if we can be with it to see it, to witness it, to understand why is this something that is so uncomfortable or agitating to me?
Then it gives us this chance to further again, get to know who we are beneath that, who are we underneath that it also starts to help us understand other people's responses to when they're getting uncomfortable or when they are agitated. So it gives us a window into other people as well. And at the same time for us to recognize, listen, my way of going after, you know, happiness or peace or joy may be different from your way of doing it based on your experiences.
Based on my experiences. And so it recognizes and gives us permission to recognize we're gonna approach this in different ways. We're not always gonna necessarily be in agreement as to how we're going about doing these things, but I can at least see you, like I can see you as a person. I can see you for what you are trying to do for yourself, whether I agree with it or not.
That comes later. Right. So I think it's, it's just it, it's an important reflection that you're describing is that there is so much that we do share, even if our path to that may look very, very different. The piece that I wanted to circle back around on was that you mentioned compassion, and we're kind of dancing around it right now as well, that I wanted to bring that back in because you demonstrated a tremendous amount of compassion with yourself, first and foremost, to be able to call those parts of you back in and say, how are we gonna work on this together?
We're talking about even the ways that we begin to recognize that what you value may be different from what I value at any given moment. What is the role of compassion with where you are on your journey right now?
[00:52:10] Avery: It is central to the role. I feel like whenever we have that disconnect, whenever we feel that divide, the compassion piece is the part that needs to be brought in.
Because compassion isn't just this band aid solution, let's just say it's fine, we're good. I can move forward with that. It actually looks at the good, the bad, and the ugly. And holds space for all of that. And that's what I think is really lacking right now in our world is that we don't wanna hold space for the ugly.
We don't wanna hold space for the bad. We only want to see the good. And so the positive vibes only and a lot of what's taught in sort of a positive psychology sphere can push some people to move past holding space for that gunk. And I feel like we. We aren't getting that learning and that integration that we need from going through those difficult experiences.
And so really suffering. When we look at it from ancient teachings in traditional Chinese medicine and the philosophies, suffering happens when you resist the suffering, but when you allow it to flow through and all of it's ugly splendor, it doesn't stay. And that's when we can learn to rise above it.
So learning how to really flow and move through those struggles, I think is the key to compassion.
[00:53:48] Luke: This idea of being able to hold space for all of life, for not just the beauty, but for the ugliness. It's again, I go back to what you were sharing before. If we're gonna be whole, we've gotta recognize all the parts of ourselves.
Well, if we're gonna experience the fullness of life. We need to experience all the aspects of it. We don't get to choose to only be on the upswing of things we're gonna go through. No matter what your life journey is, no matter how much you've been through in this life and what that may look like, everything ultimately has an up and a down to it in whatever relative sense you, you happen to be journeying.
And to me, I think those were some of the most profound experiences that I ultimately had on this journey, was to be able to sit in the depth of some of those pains and hurts and to not attach to them, to not avoid them or resist them, to not push them away, but to welcome them, to invite them in and say, just as you go through, I will see whatever it is that I need to see.
And it's not, I don't say that to mean, oh, well what's the lesson in this and what's the purpose? I don't mean it simply as, oh, we've gotta get something from this. I mean, just to witness the experience of it. Just to witness who you are when you're grieving, to just witness who you are, when you're hurting, to witness who you are, when you're angry.
There's something about even just witnessing the experience that gives us, it taps into something and I have had, I've now had joyful tears and joy. I mean that in terms of joyful grief. I've experienced that now I couldn't have before. I've had joyful anger. That was a weird one, but I've had it. I understood it.
Right. Because of what you're describing is not, not attaching and not resisting, but just to allow it and to, to be with it, to be present to the experience that that's flowing through at any given time.
[00:55:40] Avery: Absolutely. There is a line from the Doo J, which is one of the DAOs texts from Latza, and he said, if you want to become whole first, allow yourself to become broken.
And the word that always stands out for me is allow yourself to become broken. Because what we're talking about here takes a buttload of courage. like so much courage to be able to be like, yeah, I want to look at the grief and not be like, yeah, we'll tuck you in for later when I have time, and just be like, yeah, bring on the ugly tears with the snot and the unable to breathe and yeah, like I want that. I want that because I know that I need that. It's, that's scary.
[00:56:26] Luke: Yeah. It is. I, I so appreciate that you, you connect into that word of allow or allowing because it is so fundamental to our journey and when we have that ability to, to kind of give the permission to the experience we happen to be having, to be able to allow it through, to connect into that sense of allowing, it opens up our energy.
It tells us that we no longer need to try to control, we don't need to try to resist, but instead there's permission that's involved. And that permission is to experience. It's not to say that again, it's not about agreeing to what it is that may be unfolding. It's just the permission to see it, the permission to let it through, the permission to experience it so that you can be present with what is actually unfolding right now.
But it takes tremendous courage and tremendous amount of courage when things are starting to crumble. And I guess I'll just kind of come back to, to that part of our own respective journeys is that when we hit those points where we can feel, you know, the, all of these different parts of who we are and the dichotomy of what's there, there's a recognition that there are things that are beginning to fall away.
And very often when we feel the falling away of identity, We grab. Right. Come on. No, don't go anywhere. Lemme hold on. Lemme die. I don't wanna let, let there no, wait, wait, wait. And we're just grasping and we're trying to control and we're holding on. And to your point before, it's what makes that suffering so much more challenging and it literally is blocking what is otherwise a very natural process.
Things are meant to fall away, things are meant to die. We're meant to go through these cycles in life. And so I very much appreciate that, that that's part of the allowing, that's part of this process we're in. And to be aware that when you're grabbing on, when it's like, no, I want more of what I used to have, what I used to be, it's a good sign for you to say, wait a minute. I heard this thing about allowing, let me, let me see if I can tap into that for a moment.
[00:58:26] Avery: Absolutely. And I find, especially with the high achievers, the people that are like me, that like to control as many things as possible, it's the idea of surrendering, letting go, allowing, you're just like, mm, no, I'll not have any of that.
That does not sound like a good time at all. And for me and for the people that I work with, the most powerful thing is to figure out which fear is holding you back in that scenario. And I've already talked about one of the core fears, the fear of the process of like how much work it's gonna be.
But if you figure out, if it's fear of loss, if you let go of this, then what? Like, what does that look like? Who are you, who else are you gonna lose? What else are you gonna lose? So that fear of loss could really hold you back. And then also the fear of the outcome. What if you do let this go and you still don't feel better and nothing changes, then what was the point of all of that pain?
So when we can name whichever fear is holding us back, then we can like hug it, hold on with it and be like, okay, yeah, I know what fear is, is holding me. So let's bring it with me as we continue to move forward and let this go.
[00:59:36] Luke: As you described it, I, you know, I think of me being able to name the fact that the fear of, of uncertainty, the fear of not knowing, was one of the ones that followed me around, right?
Of, wait a minute, I, I, I don't know what's coming. Is it, is it going to be better? Is it gonna be this, is it gonna be that? Or don't I need to have a plan or a path? And when I was able to name the fear and ultimately build effectively a relationship with this energy that was present for me, I was able to come to the recognition that, wait a minute, no matter what I've ever convinced myself of, I didn't know what was gonna happen next anyway.
All of that certainty was just purely an illusion. So let me grasp the reality of this. The fear is completely based on this illusion, this story that I've created, and now I can change my relationship and say, okay, it's gonna be uncertain no matter what. And so how can I navigate this in a way that feels congruent to me?
How can I navigate this in a way that does embrace that courage, but also embraces that integrity that I've now built? And all of a sudden, you start to navigate very, very differently when you name those fears and start to change your relationship to 'em and to really see them for what they are.
[01:00:41] Avery: Absolutely trusting in yourself and your own abilities is one of the keys of being able to let go without that fear. And one of the things that I tell my clients all the time is like, you can trust your ability to fly by the seat of your pants because you have good pants. You've done it before, your pants have gotten you through.
So like fly by the seat of your pants, you can figure it out.
[01:01:06] Luke: Most definitely. Avery, I wanna thank you for coming on this walk, coming on this walk with me being able to share your journey, your experience, all the wisdom that you've, you've picked up through this healing journey of your own. And I wanna thank you for sharing that with the On This Walk crowd, the audience, and for being here with us today.
[01:01:25] Avery: Well, thank you so much, Luke. I really appreciate the space that you hold both for the listener and for the people that you speak with. I think it's just such a powerful thing that you do.
[01:01:37] Luke: Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.