008 - Listening Within and Finding That Inner Voice
What does your inner voice really sound like? How do we learn to trust it? What happens when we don’t…and more importantly, what happens when we do?
The search for and process of leaning into our inner guidance is a theme we’ve explored before with guests Drea Bendewald and Alexis Pokorny Kahlow (Ep. #006), whose unique journeys have led them to lead circles and hold space for other women doing their own inner work.
Today, we turn to the guys. What are the specific challenges that men encounter on the road to listening and trusting your inner guide? How can we as men learn to distinguish our “true” inner voice from all the others? How can we reconnect with this innate guide, and what kind of transformations await us on the other side?
For this walk, I'm joined by Matt Hogan, and I’m pleased to welcome back Billy Ward.
In This Episode
(01:53) Learning to trust your inner teacher
(03:31) What do we do when our inner voice starts to speak up?
(08:33) How Billy learned to differentiate between mind chatter and his inner guide
(11:56) What happens when we surrender to the flow of life?
(15:19) Matt’s journey to embracing his inner voice
(21:56) Why Matt once walked away from his inner guide, and what brought him back
(26:40) The evolution of Billy’s relationship with his inner voice
(33:20) How Billy’s Kairos work helps young men find themselves and embrace their journeys
(39:54) Billy’s path relearning to trust his inner voice
(41:23) Matt’s revelations with mirroring
(46:10) How do we build a culture where men feel free to share their stories?
(49:56) The ongoing process of developing self-trust
(54:00) When you find yourself seeking trust, ask yourself what you fear
(57:40) How Matt creates and holds space for himself via circling
Notable Quotes
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“For me, it really comes down to one question in terms of the thoughts that are coming through: does this thought come from love and truth, or does this thought come from fear? And for me, it's really easy for me to identify those thoughts that come from love and truth. And if I don't want to identify or acknowledge them, the universe is beautifully working, always, and will keep bringing that message up until I say, ‘Hey, you're trying to talk to me. You just keep bringing up this, this truth. I need to be able to look at it if I'm gonna honor that relationship with myself.’ … The quality of our life is often dependent upon the quality of questions that we're willing to ask.”
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“So often our lives feel linear, like we're just kind of stepping through on this horizontal chessboard, moving through life from point A to B, to C to D, and those can take the shape of job, marriage, house, retirement, death. But what we're talking about here is not linear by any stretch of the imagination. And it is a very cyclical experience in that you start to have these moments. I remember being seven years old and staring in the mirror going, ‘What am I? I'm in here? I'm in here. What am I doing in here? What is this?’ It was really, really fascinating. Distinguishing between the mental chatter and this still small voice, the essence of who I believe that I truly am, has both saved my life on numerous occasions.”
Our Guests
Matt Hogan is a life coach, consciousness explorer and breath-work facilitator who helps entrepreneurs and other leaders accelerate their own internal change for greater impact in their work and lives.
Billy Ward is a motivational speaker, mental health advocate, life coach and former professional football player. His podcast, The Billy Ward Podcast, aims to help people live with greater awareness so that they can experience more peace, freedom, joy and love.
Resources & Links
On This Walk
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Luke (00:00:24):
Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.
Welcome, welcome, welcome. And thank you for joining me on this walk. I'm your host, Luke Iorio. Today is a chance for us to revisit, uh, a conversation and theme that's been running for the last couple of episodes here. And part of this it's begun actually in some of the previous episodes, but we kind of kicked into, to gear with our conversation with Dre Bendewald and Alexis Pokorny Kahlow, where, uh, they specifically were talking very deeply about some of the circling work that they were doing.
And we got into how do we really truly begin to listen to that voice within? That inner teacher, how does that begin to emerge? How do we develop that relationship and that trust in what's coming through? And then what kind of does that begin to kick off in the way of how that creates some change within our lives? And at that time, I mentioned that I was not going to be leaving this topic, uh, because a lot of their work was drawn from the circles with women that they have both participated in as well as facilitated for a very, very long time. And so I wanted to bring together, uh, the, kind of the, the flip side of that equation and having heard from such balanced, feminine perspective, I wanted to bring in some of that balanced masculine perspective. Uh, I have also been sharing with you it's, it's one of the other episodes to check out, uh, an inside look actually with a group of men that I've been working, uh, specifically in circle and, and men's group work with for quite some time.
And so, as I get into this conversation of listening within, I wanted to turn to two different individuals who I will introduce you to in just a, a little while who can really begin to take this into a, a different perspective and a deeper perspective based on the work they do with their own clients, as well as their own students, which is another very interesting perspective that I wanna add here. So before we do that, before we get into there, I think one of the things that I wanna acknowledge for myself is that very often I have found myself in position where I start to connect to this voice. If I could even call it a voice, usually it starts as a feeling that begins to try to break through. That's trying to call my attention to something that isn't in the direction that maybe I've been looking at.
And instead it's starting to, to come up, the energy is starting to rise, and it's starting to ask me to pay attention to the fact, there may be a different direction. There might be a different path to consider. There might be other options or choices that previously I had not been entertaining. And, you know, when those energies, when that emotion begins to arise, you get that feeling of, hmm, something's not completely congruent or there's something here that feels like it may need to shift in some way. It's easy to kind of brush that to the side. It's easy to start to push that down, even, because you usually already have some level of energy and effort that's invested in the direction, the choices that you've already made. And so when these nudges, when these voices start to pop up, it's like, oh no, please don't do this. Not now, right? I thought I had it. I thought I had it. I was moving forward. I have this clear now. And then all of a sudden something that'll left field starts to arise. And that's usually when you, you need to get into more dialogue and the connection with that part of yourself so that you can start to really understand what are those messages? What is it that's really, truly trying to come through? Because maybe it is a change of direction. Maybe it's an acknowledgement of fear. Maybe it's an acknowledgement of uncertainty. Maybe it's an acknowledgement of you're going in the right direction, but there's a piece of it that has been misaligned. There's a piece of it that maybe is missing for you, that is not completely congruent. And those can be very, very challenging nudges and voices and feelings to really sit with, because we're used to trying to move to this place of certainty.
We're trying to see this goal line that we're trying to cross for this vision that we're trying to get to. And we set out and we move in that direction. And we think that life is supposed to look that way. Obviously we know life has its own plans, but these nudges are almost like, wait a minute. I know that life might change things on me, but now I'm changing stuff on me too? How do I engage with that? And how do I walk it back? Or how do I take a left turn when I've always been planning, and everybody knows, you know, around me that I've been planning to go this way instead?
And so I wanted to bring this again to the forefront of our conversations, to be able to have this conversation with two individuals who are doing this for themselves, two individuals that are doing this in the support and service of others, because it's acknowledging this in our voice and learning how to be with it, learning how to trust it, is a way of beginning to have a degree of trust and faith, both in self, as well as in life and the things that are coming to you. And that's a dynamic that we just don't tend to talk about very, very often in our usual chit chat and coffee conversations as it were.
And so, uh, with that in mind, to go on this walk, I had reached out to two good friends, two individuals, as I said, who have been doing this work, who I have very much appreciated their perspective and the work that they've been doing. And so, uh, one individual, uh, you are already familiar with from a past episode and our, so our first individual guest who's coming on this walk with us today is Billy Ward. And so you may remember, Billy is somebody I introduced to you as somebody who is one of the, the most congruent and authentic and loving individuals, uh, that I know. And, and he has just this beautiful connection of the way that he has developed relationship with himself, the way that he has prioritized that in his relationship with his boys. And what's amazing to me is the way in which he shows up that way in his role in guiding youth and specifically guiding young men. And we're gonna get into some of that work today that he does at the high school, uh, that he is involved at, in addition to his private counseling and other things that he does, uh, actively still pursue.
Uh, the other individual that I would like to welcome on this walk for the first time, but I can guarantee you won't be the last, uh, is Matt Hogan. And Matt is also another, you know, another, another good friend and another soul that I have seen just continually yearn to step into this deeper essence, to step into the truth of who he is and to connect from that place. And as he has gone on that journey with all of the different things, I think it's probably also worthwhile mentioning every single one of us, avid outdoors, we love pushing the limits, we love new experiences to kind of challenge our, our consciousness and spirituality. We've got a lot of commonality in, in that regard among the three of us, but in Matt's journey of doing all of those things and working with entrepreneurs and connecting them to a more soulful past a, a more socially based mindset for the types of way that they work. Matt himself has been really deeply learning to listen so much so that it's become the core of a lot of the work that he is developing and bringing out into the world. And so with that in mind with the introductions, uh, behind us, I would like to welcome Billy and Matt to On This Walk. Thank you guys.
Billy (00:07:31):
Hey everybody. Thanks for having us, Luke.
Luke (00:07:33):
Got it. I think maybe the place for us to begin today is that I wanna ask, how did you start to discern that difference between the mind chatter that we all walk around with and these deeper, this deeper voice, this deeper nudge that comes within? Because I, I know for me, it was a struggle of trying to ascertain what is it that my mind is trying to convince me of what's the chatter that's there? What is it that it wants me to see? And then there was this whole other voice that seemed to be coming from somewhere else, but really understanding what was what, which voices were really speaking and where were they speaking from was a difficult process to get to learn. And so I'm curious for both of you just to begin with, where did that start for you? Like where did, where did you begin to discern the difference between mind chatter and that voice from, from within, that deeper, more, still small voice, uh, Billy, if I can toss it to you first.
Billy (00:08:33):
I love this question. And I think for me, really, when I was much younger, you start to maybe not recognize or acknowledge the relationship you have with yourself, but as, as a young kid, being deep into how this world works and knowing that this life was fleeting and, and having a, um, a desire to, to live well, to live all in, to live all out. And, uh, I think first for me was just acknowledging that I have a relationship with myself in the same way that I related to my parents or to my siblings. I also had this, this relationship with myself that required, uh, the same love and compassion that, that I was willing to offer my family at that time. And as I evolved and, and got older, I think earlier in my twenties, it was really about how do I create space for myself that allows me to be still so that I could really decipher between, um, the thoughts that I want to entertain and, and the mind chatter.
And for me, uh, it really comes down to, to one question, uh, in terms of the thoughts that are coming through, does this thought come from love and truth, or does this thought come from fear? And for me, it's really easy for me to identify those thoughts that come from love and truth. And if I don't want to identify or acknowledge them, the universe is beautifully working, uh, always, and will keep bringing that message up until, um, I say, hey, you're trying to talk to me, and you're so gentle and beautiful. You just keep bringing up this, this truth. I need to be able to, to look at it if I'm gonna honor, um, that relationship with myself. And I think we both know, uh, all three of us, you know, that the quality of our life is often dependent upon the quality of questions that we're willing to ask.
And, and sometimes it takes a lot of courage to, to really ask those questions, but also to acknowledge some, some of that chatter that's coming up, especially when it's coming from a place of love and truth. Um, change is uncomfortable, and as you mentioned in your introduction, there's a lot of uncertainty like where, where will that take me? And I think as I've gotten older, um, and more mature and experienced life and some big trauma, some little trauma, I've become a lot more comfortable with being uncomfortable, as well as not knowing exactly where this is gonna take me.
Luke (00:11:04):
Y'all have heard me say it on this show. I don't know where this is going. That's not said in confusion or worry or fear or doubt, it's said from a place of surrender. That's been a massive leap of faith for me, I've done my best at times successfully to steer my life based on my preferences for how I wanted things to be. It worked out more often than not actually, I was very fortunate that way, and yet, despite all of that steering that guiding and, let's face it, controlling, despite all those ways that it did pay off for me, materially, I still wasn't fulfilled. I didn't feel free. And I felt like I always had to stay vigilant or keep it all together. I couldn't find peace within that way of being and living. There's a great quote from Michael Singer who wrote The Surrender Experiment, which was a follow up to his big hit, The Untethered Soul.
He asked himself, what would happen to me if I just inwardly surrendered my resistance and let the flow of life be in charge? Think about that for a minute. What would happen to me if I just inwardly surrendered my resistance and let the flow of life be in charge? This best sums up what I've been trying my best to actively do in my life for the past few years, surrender does not mean resignation or giving up or giving in surrender is about connecting to the flow of life and dancing with it. It's about being present to what's moving and changing and shifting and feeling for what's your place within that flow, letting it take you to surprise you and delight you. Surrender requires presence, it requires deep awareness. It requires establishing a relationship with that inner voice and teacher. And it also requires you to be extremely mindful of your ego, of your coping and control mechanisms, of the ways that you try to force life to be a certain way.
This podcast is part of my own surrender experiment in a way. I wanted to put light out into the world using my gifts. I wanted to open up conversations that are more intimate and invite people, both guests and listeners, to express from that more vulnerable, soulful place, and to see where these conversations take us. As a teaser in the next episode, actually, I go into that vulnerable place with a past guest who holds space for me, as I'm working through some of the behind the scenes energy, that's actually been brewing as I bring this podcast out to the world. But again, what's been guiding me is a question like what Michael Singer asked, what would happen to me if I just inwardly surrendered my resistance and let the flow of life be in charge? Let's go further into listening within and our relationship with self and see where this flow of life and conversation takes us.
I wanna get back to, I think, one of the, the interesting things, and then Matt, maybe, uh, go off of this or, or just share from your own perspective. Uh, but I think that turning towards the idea of having a relationship with self is a, a very, very interesting way of framing it. And I think a, a, a very good one. I know that when I started to turn towards some of the inner work, it, I certainly would not have described it as a relationship. I would've, right. I would've described it as an effort of a, uh, well, I need to change these beliefs, I need to change these experiences, I need to change this, I need to change that, but there's a quality that emerges when you think of your relationship with self and there's qualities of that love and that nurturing and that compassion, as well as that accountability and integrity that starts to come in, that, to me, feels different in this, quote - unquote, inner work and inner dialogue that's unfolding. So let me pause there, Matt. I wanna turn to you and see, certainly just you can, you can use that and jump off of that if you would choose, or, uh, the original question was around, how did you begin to discern that difference between these voices and, and the one that was really that true inner teacher voice?
Matt (00:15:20):
There's so much here, but I wanna think, the first thing I would, meaningful to say is that, so often our lives feel linear. Like we're just kind of stepping through on this horizontal chess board as the chess player, moving through life from point A to B, to C to D, and those can take shape of job, marriage, house, retirement, death, dying. But what we're talking about here is not linear by any stretch of the imagination. And it is a very cyclical experience in that you start to have these moments and I'll bring it back personal here. I remember being seven years old and staring in the mirror going, what am I? I'm in here? I'm in here. What am I doing in here? What is this? It was really, really fascinating. And then, you know, fast forward years, and I can start to see where the distinguishing between the mental chatter and this still small voice, or the essence of who I believe that I truly am, has both saved my life on numerous occasions.
Uh, as you know, Luke, you know, more about me than most people, when I was 18, I attempted to end my life. And in that night, that night, I had a very distinguishing moment between the mental chatter that had guided me for years. That said, my life is terrible and so much pain. There's so much anger. I hate it so much to this very clean crisp firm voice came in and says, and this was after I had pulled the trigger, uh, they said, you will not die like this. You will not die tonight. And it was like, I was reborn, rebirth. I picked myself up off the floor and found my way to emergency services, you know, and then carried in through my recovery period where I was told I'd never walk again. And I just remember between all the chatter, one distinct moment, I'm sitting on the roof in my wheelchair, having been told that I would never walk again.
And I just remember it coming in. It says, this will not be your life. And it just set forth this beautiful path. And then fast forward, many years where I mostly am tuned out to it and I can name more and more experiences like in my corporate career and relationships with money and travel and all of that, where it has been an opening and a closing, but over time, the discernment has grown as that, I'll call it a, a lid kind of like on a teapot, opens up. And now it's just starting to stay open more and more and more as I, again, acknowledge, be with, and trust it. But it has taken so much time because when you have so much, uh, going on inside you, that feels like chaos. That feels like confusion, getting lost and all, it's hard to know what to trust. So how do I know that's just not another thing trying to cause confusion or steer me down the wrong path or into the wrong relationship, the wrong job, or all the things?
Billy (00:18:25):
Matt, I, I love the image that, that you shared, uh, being seven years old and, and being in the mirror and, and looking at yourself and saying, where, where am I in here? That, that, I mean, I wish we were hanging out at seven and we could have had a really wild conversation, people be like, what are you guys talking about? I wanna add to, to, to that, what you said and, and discerning your thoughts. One of the most powerful things that, that I've read around this was from Eckhart Tolle, and I'm not sure when it came out, I don't know if it was in A New Earth or, uh, Silence Speaks, but this idea he wrote, you are not your thoughts. And I remember reading that for the first time, I was like, wait a second. What, where, where am I then in this whole, whole mixed bag? And, and learning that, that I was, I was this space beyond the thoughts and with that space, I get to choose what thoughts I'm gonna feed and, and what thoughts that I'm really going to entertain. But that, that, that choosing is so profound and powerful and difficult, right? Uh, to decipher between, uh, which thoughts mean, mean what, but this idea that we're kinda like the space beyond the thoughts. So I just, I love that image that you shared being a seven year old and, and asking some pretty serious questions.
Luke (00:19:35):
You know, Billy, that, what that, that brings up is, is I remember, and I, I can't remember where I, I first connected with similar thought to what you just shared, but I remember that analogy popping in my head. Uh, maybe this was during some of the, the depth of meditation training that I've been been involved with, was that the brain pumps, thoughts, the way that hearts pump blood, right? And for us to be able to acknowledge listen, our, our brain is an organ, it's not us. So our brain is going to pump out certain messages, certain thoughts, and the way that the brain communicates is in words. So it's the most direct communication that we can quote - unquote, understand. And so we hear it a certain way, and we mistake that for our voice, but it's not, it's just the brain pumping thoughts, like the heart is pumping blood.
And it is that space between, the, that space behind, that all of a sudden we can sit back into, but it requires stillness, finding the space between thoughts and allows us to begin to be open enough to hear it. And the way that, that Matt, you, you framed this in, uh, acknowledge, be and trust really like that. And so the ability to acknowledge those deeper messages, the deeper nudges, the deeper feelings that start to come through is a really, really, really critical step because that's one, even that, that most people would fear. You, one of the many things that you said there, and the background that you have, was that message that came through. This will not be your life. There's a lot of people that would not have acknowledged that statement because they would've been taken in by what they were experiencing externally, and all of the other messages were coming in. But the ability to take something that at the time, I'm sure, felt like a voice from somewhere completely other, and to be able to acknowledge it to say, no, I did hear that. That was not a figment of my imagination. I heard that, now all of a sudden we can go into a much deeper place. For me, it's, it's, I'm curious for Matt, maybe I start with you on this. Maybe in that moment, it was something so visceral that there was no way to not acknowledge it, but maybe you could speak from the perspective of having walked away from that deeper voice for a period of time, how you began to acknowledge it once again, like how did you find your way back there?
Matt (00:21:56):
Well, for sure, you know, just imagine for a moment, you know, you're sitting, you close your eyes and just imagine you're sitting in a wheelchair, you're not able to walk. And you're told that you may never walk again. You're sitting on this roof, you feel the cold breeze blowing over you as just tears are pouring out of your eyes. And then you just hear this message says, this will not be your life. And it, you feel this visceral response through your entire body, like a, like your entire body was just a light switch and you just flipped it on. And the lights came on. And then all of a sudden it was just like, just like the light in the room that didn't exist before, now does, and that there was just no way that change wasn't gonna happen, it was like that. In that moment, when I felt that, heard that, there was no doubt inside of me at all, my life would not change.
It was just, it was inevitable. That's what it was. Consider and say it, but unless you feel it, it's really, really hard to take in, and it was so profound. But literally my life just reorganized itself so seemingly, not easy, but I just knew what was next very quickly. Um, though the period away from the voice, this was the interesting period, cause a lot of the period in my twenties, I didn't hear a lot of it. I was either in college or I was just lost in trying to fit in, things like that, and trying to make the transition into a, a career and all those things. But I remember the first time I heard it again, cause I went about seven or eight years where I think I was mostly just following what I was taught to follow in terms of what society teaches us. You, you know, in many ways you go to school, you get outta school, then you, then you go get the job and you go get the marriage and you go da, da, da. I was within that for a long period of time, and that felt like the only path. And I remember what I found along the way is I would find myself in situations. Like for example, I found myself and I say, find myself, cause it's like, how did I get here? Uh, working for a corporation in Atlanta when I was 26. And when I really woke up to the culture that I was working in, the environment I was working in and how I was showing up with other people, I'm just like, baffled, how did I get here? How did I become this? And it was like, the moment I had that again, it was like, oh, well, it's time for this to change. Cos this isn't, this isn't my life. And so that voice came back in, when it, it spoke loud enough for me to go, what are you doing? And I listened to it rather than all the befores. It was like, you should want this job. You should take this job. You should take that amount of money. You should want that. This is what your family expects. This is what, blah, blah, blah, expects like all of that. And what would they think? And all those things, like when all that fell away, there was just this, what are you doing here? And it wasn't mean, it wasn't like calling me an idiot or anything. It was just like, what are you doing? You sure you wanna be here? I don't think you do.
Luke (00:25:08):
Billy, I wanna bring this back to you for a moment, cos you brought this up and, and it, it, that what you brought up, Matt just fits so well is, you said it before, the quality of our life very often mirrors the quality of our questions, right? And it's interesting to me that now that you mention it, Matt, a lot of the ways that that inner voice got my attention back was not a message, but a question and I've been fascinated with you, anybody that sees some of my social media stuff knows. I just, I absolutely am, am enthralled with Rilke's quote around "live the questions" so that we may someday live into the answers. And it's with that idea of, of having the question, just so present in our energy and quite literally walking with it, not with the intention of, I've gotta answer it right now, but I want the question itself to work on me, to answer through me as opposed to, oh cool, I can answer that. Let me write that one down. I can check that off on Tuesday, right? Doesn't quite work that way most of the time. And so I'm just, you know, Billy, I'm kind of curious cos you brought that, that quality of questions, you know, back into this, this, this frame. And I'm just kinda curious how that's worked for you. Like as you've gone through this relationship with self and relationship with that inner voice, to talk a little bit about how it has come and how it has gone, that connection with that voice, you know, how did it continually invite you back until it became just something that was clearly the relationship was, was strong and, and built?
Billy (00:26:40):
Yeah. You know, I think Luke, first and foremost and, and Matty is, uh, it's just an ongoing process for me, uh, you know, right now. And it's funny as we speak I'm, I'm directing a, a, a Kairos retreat, my 51st, uh, Kairos Retreat and, and part of, uh, part of this Kairos for me, and Kairos is a Greek word for God's timing, is really letting go. I'm training a young man to kind of take over for me. And, uh, this has kind of been my, my baby that I've birthed at school that has had, uh, a real impact on the culture, um, and, and lives of, uh, numerous, uh, young men, students and their families. And it's not all me, it's a collective effort, but the question I've been asking myself lately and, and talking to the universe, even sharing with the, the boys this morning after breakfast is, I'm not really sure what I'm gonna do next, but I've been asking the universe and my spirit guides to let me know.
And I had an interesting opportunity that was gonna kind of box me in and it was gonna elevate me and be good for my ego and acknowledge me, you know, president. And thankfully it didn't work out. And, and so I'm still kind of like in this area of, uh, uncertainty, but as I said earlier, I I've got a lot more comfortable with not knowing what's ahead, but knowing kind of like Maddie said, and, and just having this feeling that my life is moving in a direction that is more in alignment with the truth of who I am than, than I ever have, uh, been living. And so that in and of itself feels good. I'm aligning myself, all of my work right now, my inner work, my walks in the woods, my meditation, my scene bowls. It's all to align me with the future that the universe is preparing me for.
And I can't really tell you what that is yet, but I, I, I'm confident that it falls under the auspices of a lot of what we're talking about. I was having a catch with my 11 year old and we were talking about my future and I said, hey, what do you think daddy's good at? And he's like, I think you're pretty good at helping people express who they are and be vulnerable. And I said to him, I said, can you think about a business that you would put that into me? And so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm asking questions, uh, I'm reflecting a lot, but really sitting in the uncertainty, and I think as you beautifully said, letting the question kind of work through me and having faith that the direction that the universe wants me to head in will, will manifest and surface.
Matt (00:29:06):
So it's about this whole conversation around, you know, how we're guided and where we're guided and then wanna circle it back to the energy that feels to be in the conversation around having those questions that we walk with and live into and live. I think it is important to realize, I mean, you may be listening to us talk right now and going, okay, I've got a question, now what? And it can be really difficult. One can be like, but there's infinite possibility of questions. How do I know which question do you even be asking? That can be a part of the process of really starting to acknowledge what is the question that holds the most potential in terms of tension and potential in terms of change for you? And letting go of the need for it to be perfect can be really, really important. And also what I have found time and time again, is sometimes I have to look for a question, cause I'm, there's a question missing, but sometimes the question just comes to me and it just says, this is the question that I need to be considering.
And then I have to clear space for it, but then bringing it back to all of this around the acknowledge, be with and trust. We've gotta acknowledge the question. Then we have to be with the question, maybe asking it several times a day, maybe asking it before our next meeting. Maybe asking it before we go to bed, jotting a couple notes, but just keep asking it, keep asking it and see what starts to take shape and then begin to learn to trust. Let me rephrase that. Cause, Luke knows that historically I've been quite skeptical. I'm like, I don't know, is this really gonna do anything? You have to begin to learn to trust that answers will come and they will start to shape the way you see the way you experience and the way you move through the world.
Luke (00:30:45):
So there's a piece there also with being able to connect to those questions. And at times as Matt, you started to bring up, it's that we may not know the exact question, but it's to just follow the energy that's there. Start to ask it, it'll revise itself or your energy will tell you, nah, it's not quite this, try this, right? And, and it's an evolving kind of a dialogue that goes on there. I think the other thing is that as you begin to walk with those questions, with those nudges, few things, one, pay attention to the feeling of resonance, meaning that when all of a sudden you feel like whatever's coming through or the situation that you find yourself in, or a synchronicity that like something comes up that is directly related to what you're walking with right now, pay attention to the way that your energy will, will resonate with that.
Meaning how it harmonizes or attunes or calls out or speaks to your energy in a much deeper way. It's not just the feeling of, oh, that was a good insight. Oh, that was a good idea. That's still a mental thing. When something resonates with you, it has this deeper, almost vibrational feel to it. That's like drawing you towards something. And so just pay attention to that. It's a very somatic kind of, very in the body, kind of, of a feeling. I also love that Matt, you brought up this tension that very often, you know, it can be the one that opens up the most potential. It can be the one that opens up this, opens up that. And I know when I stumble onto one of those nudges, questions, reflections, that come in from this deeper voice, if I feel tension and confusion, I pay attention.
Because at that point I can tell I'm on, I'm cutting at an edge right now. And if I'm confused around it, even better, because that means it's gonna bypass my mind. Like it's saying, oh, I'm gonna gonna do this in such a way that your mind couldn't try to answer this if it wanted to. I'm like, yes, bring it on, confuse the mind please, get it to shut up. Just in those couple of, of, of things that I wanted to point out.
Billy, I wanna come back to you for a second, one, because I was hoping you were gonna be able to answer the question around what's next, because that's my question as well. But since you can't answer that for both of us, I did wanna ask you to elaborate a little bit more on Kairos, because I think this is, right, this is such a unique program, what's unfolded with it. And the fact that you're doing it with young adolescent men, young men, is an incredible thing. So I just was hoping you could tie a little of this conversation to what Kairos is for people to understand a little bit more about this, because we need a lot more programs like this all over the country.
Billy (00:33:21):
Yeah, no thank thank you for asking, cos I was just gonna add, uh, add on around Kairos. And uh, so Kairos is a four day experience where I, I bring about 60 young men together and we focus in on, uh, the relationship that we have with self, others, and God. It's a four day experience, but like many programs on planting seeds that I hope last a lifetime and the integration of these ideas is what's most important. What I love most about the conversation we're having and what I love most about the, the questions that that we're asking and that we've asked of ourselves and how it fits into Kairos is this, this journey that we're on, we don't have to take it along. The most powerful energy that we can share within these relationships is love, right? I'm here to, to love and, and to be loved. That love and that witness, and those experience really becomes prevalent in the stories that we share with one another. And so hearing Matt's story and having the opportunity and the privilege just to meet him today and, and a guy that I'd probably spend hours with and to be here with yourself, Luke, somebody that I really respect and like, and love, to be able to share in a way that we can be so vulnerable and know that we belong. And we're not really all that much different for, for struggling or not knowing what's next and on Kairos, what, what I find, you know, last night I had, uh, three speakers that I had worked with for, uh, the last three weeks, uh, one faculty member and two students. And so I got 60 young men coming into a room and they don't really know what to expect other than, you know, kids say this, it's a life changing experience.
And then one of their peers goes up to the front of the room and they start sharing their story. And, and not, not the locker room story, not the Saturday night diner story, the story that you don't normally tell people. And I think it's time for us to start telling these stories, to start being more courageous with like, you know what, I'm a human being. And there are parts of me that are absolutely divine. And then there are parts of me that man, I wish that I, I didn't have to view it. Uh, but they're there. And so I find like one of the most powerful things in cultivating change and paying attention to this inner voice is learning from others. Like when did you hear your inner voice pop up? How did you integrate the, the messaging that you were getting? Um, how did you become more accepting of the times that you came up short? Because I love what Matty said earlier. This is not a linear line, this is cyclical. Sometimes at, at my age, I feel like I'm on top of the world. And sometimes I'm like, I can't believe people call me and ask me for advice.
This is part of the human journey, right? And, uh, so with Kairos, it's really about, I allow a student to, to publicly share their story. And then I bring guys back to get in circle and they sit in a group of six to eight boys with a faculty member and they go around and they answer questions that relate to the story that's been shared. And it gives those guys a chance to take small risk in allowing themselves to be seen. And they share parts of themselves again, that they don't normally share. And normally what we think, if I share this part of me, Luke and Matt aren't going to like me, but the truth is that if I share this part of me, I'm gonna give you and Matt and the audience more opportunities to connect and love me. That's something that I think takes a, takes a little while to learn and to evolve into it. And I think it does require and experience. And I think it requires a witness and some leadership. And so I think we need to just lean into the stories of others and be willing also to courageously share our own stories.
Luke (00:37:09):
I wanna acknowledge to everybody listening that you're gonna notice, obviously, some themes that, that also came up when I was, when I was speaking with Dre and Alexis, that there is something in this power of being in circle or being witnessed in these types of moments. And I think part of the way that I connect this in my own experience and in my own mind is that when you're cultivating this inner relationship and you're cultivating this understanding of these messages, this inner voice that comes through, and you're looking to figure out, can I trust this? When you're able to speak that experience aloud, to no longer keep it bottled up, to allow it to be seen, it makes it more real. It makes it more tangible. And then to see that in others, to see others going through that type of experience and being able to hold that space for them, all of a sudden, we begin to walk away with, oh, this, Billy, you said, we're not in this alone. We're going through this together. And those stories, those inner stories are the ones that, you know, that's what I won't go far on this, cos otherwise I get on the soapbox. That's not the one that you're gonna see on Instagram or Facebook, right? You're not gonna get to see the full real story of the truth, the pain, the heartache, the discomfort, the sorrow, the grief that people go through and the inner turmoil that we put ourselves through on a day in and day out basis. But if we can start to make that actually part of our narrative, it's one of the whole reasons behind what we're doing here on this show, is to have these conversations so that people can say, oh, there are others that go through this too. There are others that are experiencing it. And maybe I can follow a breadcrumb that worked for them until I figure out the breadcrumbs that, that are mine, that, that I can follow.
Anyhow, I, it's a very interesting way of taking this somewhat esoteric, conceptual idea of having this, this relationship with inner voice. And when we make it more real, when we make it more tangible, we express in that way. That's actually part of the learning to trust process. We don't even have to act on it yet. Just learn to trust, to put voice to it and share it with just one other person that can acknowledge and see it, witness it in you then start to, well, what if I did listen a little more? What if I did honor it and take a step towards it? You start to cultivate that trust process. Let me bring it back to you because that's, that's the part that you didn't further, you started to elaborate on of learning to trust, but I wanted to bring it back to you of, well, how are you doing it now? How are you actively in your life right now, cultivating trust in that inner guidance, that inner teacher that, that keeps coming through?
Matt (00:39:54):
Before I answer that, I'd like to throw something into, weave into what Billy's beautiful description of his work with young men. And then also even Luke, your continuation around the stories and the speaking of, and the being witness of, and I simply just wanna say that, you know, within our stories exist a couple of things. One is the potential within the stories exist the seat of potential for our unfolding of evolution and change. And it's in the expressing and the experiencing and being seen of our stories that we often find ourselves.
Billy (00:40:30):
Love that.
Luke (00:40:32):
Absolutely.
Matt (00:40:33):
And so I say that because sometimes we can be dismissive of the stories. And stories have multiple different definitions I think that are circling around and the stories we experience, the stories of ourselves that we experience as our lives, they're important. And there are seeds of potential and seeds to direct us back to who we really are.
Luke (00:40:56):
When we are sharing our stories, to have elements of that mirrored back to us is a very important part of that being seen as well as seeing what it is that has now been put out there. And I was wondering if you could just speak a little bit to what you've experienced, you know, not necessarily a discourse on mirroring, but just what you experienced in having those elements and having the energy of your story mirrored back to you in a way that now you could actually see even more clearly what you put out.
Matt (00:41:24):
In the expressing of my personal experience, as questions I'm walking with, the stories that I experience as my life, as my challenges as my, what are my, what's my way forward? What's my way here now? In the sharing, in the right space with the right people, it's amazing what can happen when they simply, they don't regurgitate my story back to me, they engage with it. They live into the story. They're like, oh, like tell me more about this. And they lean in and capture the essence of it, it's sharing. It's like, it just starts to weave this tapestry that as it's being shared and you're sitting and listening to it, you can feel it in your body. I had just had this experience last week while I was sitting in the desert of Southern California with a group of people where we spent time alone in nature and time in circle. And as I'm being mirrored, I could feel visceral responses in my body as if the story that can often be mental, started to be connected with something deeper inside of myself. And that's why I said that statement about, we find ourselves in our stories. So there was this click between the abstract and also the real world around me. And that mirror is so powerful and you can feel it through you and it will make clicks and shifts that just, I've not personally found in my own, my own processes by myself.
Luke (00:42:48):
Yeah. What I wanted then connect that to is, is something else that you had mentioned prior to that part was this ability that everything is, is using my own words for it, every experience that we have is ultimately an invitation for us to return back to our wholeness. And it's through these experiences of being able to express the inner experience, to express the inner dialogue, to have those experiences and those stories then mirrored back to us, but in a way that holds space and takes us deeper into our experience, not just an affirmation or, or an acknowledgement to what they've heard, but takes us deeper back to that, that experience. At those moments, we're beginning to recognize that whatever is coming up for us, whatever we're hearing, whatever we're experiencing, it's either showing us the parts that don't feel included, the parts of us that still feel separate, the parts of us that still feel like they are clamoring to have a voice, a seat at the table.
And so they're gonna kick and scream until they get that attention. Or we're gonna begin to notice the pieces that are integrating and are really coming from that place of essence. And both of those, it doesn't matter, it's, it's, you know, certainly we love feeling the times that we feel the integration, we feel the wholeness, but those shadow moments are critical to our path and critical to recognizing that all experiences are still an invitation to return to wholeness. And when we can to view it that way, and it react with life that way, which is fueled by a rich, inner dialogue with that deep inner voice, we're at space behind the thoughts that Billy you, uh, eloquently tied it to, that space between the space beyond, the space behind the thoughts, can start to interact and, and see the way that all of these pieces can fit back together again. And it's, it's this, this deeper inner voice that really makes that a rich process.
Billy (00:44:40):
Cool. Matt, I loved how you, uh, how you said we find ourselves in the stories that we share. And, uh, one of the things that I've experienced in, in the Kairos model with, uh, you know, 18 year old young men is they will sign up to, to become a Kairos leader with me and I'll interview them. And, uh, before they leave and I'll say, congratulations, and what for Mr. Ward? I'm like, you just started an endeavor where you're gonna have to face yourself. And they don't quite, you know, recognize what they're signing up for. And they said, and I pull, I, I try to pull a story, you know, I start, all right, tell me why are you the way you are right now? Like what's happened to you, what's, what's gone on in your life. And, um, then they go and they, they write their story.
And then they come into the office with, you know, about five or six teachers, myself included and, and the rest of the team. And we listen to their story. And I think this is where, you know, the mirroring comes back in. We give them feedback. What was it like to experience that, uh, we pull more feelings out. We talk about the things that they left out of the story, where, where the gaps are. And it's in those moments where it almost becomes like therapeutic, there's this feedback loop, there's this opportunity for this student to express. And then there's this opportunity for us to say your story really matters. I can't tell you how many stories I've heard from 17 and 18 year old young men that have had a profound impact on me as an adult. And so I think the next question is how do we get into a culture, right?
Where we get more comfortable sharing our stories. And I think it's important. Sometimes I share parts of my stories in, in, in the Krauszers in the morning with, you know, with Tony and Raj getting my coffee. They're not getting the whole picture, but they're getting a little glimpse. And I think, you know, for me, Matt and Luke, I think it's at this age being honest with where I'm at, wherever I'm at and being okay with it. Uh, and sometimes it's okay for me not to be okay. I work really hard at being okay. I work really hard at being healthy. I'm really vigilant with my spiritual health, but the more honest and raw I can be with wherever I'm at the freer I feel. And when I put it out there again, it just seems to give people more accessibility, but it also gives me a chance to really get to know other people on a much deeper level. Because as soon as I start sharing and drop the walls, it's one thing I always acknowledged, uh, and, and loved in my little brother. He was just free from the moment he came out of utero. And I was like, wait, where are all your fears, dude? Like should have been a second born child. Like this birth order has a lot going on in there, but this, this freedom to really express where you are, wherever you are, and be okay with that.
Luke (00:47:22):
You know it's interesting to, to begin that process of that honesty with self, and being able to express from that place of, of honesty with self and express that into the world. When we develop that, if we keep returning to that, you find that the deeper voice and the voice that you hear most often start to unify, right? Because the voices split when there's something we don't wanna see or don't wanna hear or don't wanna feel. But if we're honest with what is, if we're honest with what we're experiencing, what we're feeling, what we're questioning, what we're doubting, what we're fearing, et cetera, then all of a sudden the voices collapse, and we're back to one place. We're back to that center point because we, we've actually become present to what is in this particular moment.
So let me come back to the question I asked before is, in trusting. So in, in developing, cultivating this trust, so the trust to be that honest, right? The trust to be that honest with yourself, the trust to express from that place, the trust to follow through when you start to get these nudges and, and figure out, maybe there are some answers that are starting to come through for these questions, how do we build that muscle of trust to begin to move forward from that place? And I think I'll just, before I kind of toss that to you guys, and what you said before, Billy, I think is, is this wonderful description of where you are right now of you don't know what's next and that you are sort of, uh, cultivating this relationship with self, with spirit, with divine timing in such a way is it will reveal itself, but you've done your work to be prepared for whenever it comes. And that I will say is, is very, very true of the way that I've approached the work I'm doing right now. The work, the journey I've been on for the last couple of years, is that I still don't know exactly what's next. I've, everybody's heard me already say it on the show, I have no idea where this is going. No idea. And I don't know how much this is gonna change from episode to episode to episode right now I have no clue, but it's getting into this conversation being, being forward with it and starting to honor it. And I think that's the interesting thing, right? Is there's the trust of the direction that maybe we wanna go in, but there's also the trust in coming back to that beautiful word, Kairos, that if it's not happening yet, that's okay. It's not time. And so even having trust with being in between. So I'm just curious for your, your, both your perspectives of how you've, you're developing and working with that trust on an ongoing basis. Cos that's not a, oh, I trust it. I've got it done. I gotta, I gotta figure it out, that's an ongoing relationship and work.
Billy (00:49:56):
I would like to acknowledge this really quickly, Luke, the trust that, that you're displaying and the uncertainty that, that's ahead for you and, and being okay with that. But you're also creating actionable steps, right? Like here, here we are. You brought us all together because you decided that, hey, this is something that would be worthwhile. And I'm assuming that it's worthwhile first for you, and, and then, then for us, and then for the audience, right? Like I love talking to you guys. I would do this for, for hours. And so I think it's important. Like, like I post on social media, I try to post every day. I don't necessarily like it. I do see it as a medium by which for me to practice my messaging. And so it's an actionable step that I can take on a daily basis to just put myself out there and allow myself to be seen. And so I just, I just wanna acknowledge also that there are some actionable steps and I think Martin Luther King said it, we don't see the whole stairway, I'm paraphrasing. All we need to do is see the first step, take the first step and with faith and knowledge that that second step will appear.
Luke (00:51:01):
Okay. Let's step back into what I was saying earlier about not knowing where this is going to take me and surrendering. Billy was quoting Martin Luther King Jr. when he said faith is taking the first step, even when you don't see the whole staircase, that's how I view much of what's been unfolding for me right now. It's about the next best step. And having faith that the next one after that is gonna keep showing itself, it's gonna reveal itself to me. One of the greatest obstacles that I've had to face was actually this energy of needing to know, I needed to know where something is going, how is it gonna work out? What are we gonna do if this, or if that, or even just needing a clear plan, because that gave me a perceived sense of certainty. I say perceived sense because nothing ever goes as planned y'all know that.
But I also didn't know about this needing to know drive that wanted things more clearly planned out or to at least have all the big steps mapped out was that I was cutting myself off from so many other new possibilities. I wasn't leaving room for any magic. I wasn't leaving any room for the universe or for my soul to nudge me in a new direction. That was even better than anything that I ever could have thought of. I'm not gonna say to never have a plan, but most of the things we really feel deeply called to do, they don't have a roadmap. They don't have a blueprint to follow. At some point you have to just take the next best step and see where it leads you. And evaluate from there, you have to put your energy, your intentions, your dreams, your expressions out into the world and see what gets drawn back to you. But I recognize this takes a leap of faith and it requires building extraordinary trust in yourself to handle whatever it is that you need that comes your way. And so let's keep that part of the conversation going with Billy and Matt.
Billy (00:53:04):
The question you asked in terms of how to build trust, for me, it's simply, uh, at this point in my life, I, I ritualize what I value. And so what I mean by that, I have daily rituals that help create stillness for me that allow me a space to, to hear this inner voice. I wake up early, you know, I have lemon water. I walk outside barefoot. I pray and I meditate. And at some point during the day I'm gonna practice yoga. I'm constantly asking myself wherever I go, what do I wanna show up? This morning, I started off with talk to 60, 18 year olds and I said, I am strong. I am powerful. And I'm a son of God. I said, it's one of the mantras I'm constantly repeating myself. Why? Cos I have to constantly coach myself. So I don't fall into the pitfalls of self doubt or self hate or what, whatever, but I'm constantly vigilant with regards to, to building this trust through ritualizing what I value so that again, I can be in alignment to really hear that voice.
Luke (00:54:00):
And Matt, for you?
Matt (00:54:01):
Wanted to bring in something first that, I'm gonna bring it right back to acknowledge, be with and trust. So often we're clear when we don't trust something. It's like, how can I trust that this is gonna work out? How can I trust that this person won't hurt me? How can I trust that this client's gonna re-enroll? How can I trust all the millions of things that we look for, for trust? How can I trust my body? I think it's important to at least acknowledge first to begin to with acknowledge that that seeking of trust is birthed because of fear and there's fear behind that missing trust. And this has been my own personal experience. It took me a long time to realize this, that the need for trust is born in the presence of fear. So if you're finding yourself seeking trust, what is it you're afraid of?
And I think that's a really important conversation because Luke, you kicked us off talking about working with the different parts of ourselves and in those moments where you're like, well, I need to trust that this podcast is gonna work. And you feel that twinge, that tension, that, uh, that confusion even, what part of yourself is trying to talk? What part of yourself do you need to spend some time counseling and mirroring with? And spending time with? Maybe you need to better understand what its needs are, that part of you. Maybe you need to hear what messages might exist there that may actually make the endeavor more successful or just with less tension. And I'm not even talking about action yet. I'm just talking about the way we relate to ourselves and connect with our inner experience. And seeing that the drive for trust is born in fear.
Be with those parts that are fearful, honor them. Don't judge them, don't tell them to shut up. Don't do that, I've tried, it doesn't work very well. You know, really take space for that and I'll get to my practice in a moment. But then the flip side of that, that I've experienced is once the fear begins to fall away again, hold on on action. The trust just becomes a part of life that you don't even notice is there. The only reason you notice it's there is because you notice the contrasting experience that whoa, where did all that tension and tightness and rumination go? Because all of a sudden trust just is, it's not even a conversation. That's been my experience anyways. And you know, in terms of action, you know, maybe you are in the process of trying to do something where you were able to alleviate some of the fear, cos you spent some time talking to yourself, you spent some time figuring out what was really going on and what you need, but there's still some, well, this is where another, uh, distinction can become useful and it's testing versus trusting.
And it's, what's the next level of testing that you're willing to bring out into the world that feels doable? Make it 5% progress from where you're at rather than 0%. Cause so often we get caught up in like, okay, I've gotta launch this podcast. Now I gotta make plan out the next 10 years. No, what's the 5% for you? Maybe it's three months, maybe it's a month, whatever it is, connect to, what's your testing phase. So that way you can both see how the world responds rather than just ruminating in your head. Like how is the world gonna respond, but also know that you have it built around what you feel capable of doing and open to doing. And I'll bring that back to something that I do quite consistently is I spend a lot of time in short session with myself where I'm looking at, what are all the different messages I'm receiving from the different parts of myself and the different areas of life, money, health, body, family, all the buckets we're all familiar with?
And then I just start listening and taking note. I actually do it called a, a weekly circle with myself and I start taking notes and I start seeing like, what are the big questions right now? And where are the tensions and things like that. And I really start to have those mirroring conversations with myself. And I know Luke knows this and it has created so much spaciousness for me inside myself that has also brought in new questions that I didn't know I had to walk with, which has also brought in some emerging, uh, space without that fear as the backdrop, which has led to a lot of new actions in my life that you might call courageous, but it's not courageous if the fear isn't there, it's just what you do.
Luke (00:58:25):
So many things to touch on in, in what you brought up here. Number one, I think the, just the acknowledgement, right? Of when we are looking for trust, then that means there is, there is some element of doubt, fear that is still there, cos otherwise it's just there. It's just, oh of course. Why wouldn't we do this? It's foregone conclusion already. And being able to break that down into a conversation with selves, that's right, selves, not self, because there are different parts of us that are trying to speak at any given time. Matt, you brought it up and I'll, it's actually a perfect example of even how some of this podcast came to be was quite literally looking at the, the parts of me that wanted to plan, the parts of me that wanted to have it all figured out, the parts that wanted all of the pieces in place before I got rolling, all these things, right?
Where's this gonna go? What's the point behind it? Where's it gonna lead? And I needed to sit down with, you know, there, I'll tell you two very specific parts of me that I needed to sit down with. One was what I'd call the business Luke, because that's the part of me that's into the planning. That's gotta have the vision, it's gotta have the goals. It's very achievement oriented and that's, you know, it's a form of control, right? And that's a mechanism. It's a persona that lives in energy or an archetype that's within me. And then there's another one which is out very directly out of, uh, Bill Plotkin's work, referred to as the loyal soldier. And this is the protector for just kind of a shorthand of this is it's the protector that's within me that has always found ways of stepping up to protect me from the uncertain, from the unknown, from the fear, from the discomfort, from the possible pain and disappointment that's there.
And so to elaborate on what I've gone through, Matt, what you just brought up, cos this is a, an incredible process. And it actually goes all the way back to what Billy you brought up in, in that space, uh, that we sit into that's beyond, that's behind the thoughts is that if you start to figure out who some of these selves are, these different parts, these different energies that live within you, you can literally put yourself in a round table, so to speak, with them where you've got them sitting around. But then you remember, you're not sitting at the round table, you're sitting in the center of it. And when you can start to look around at all of these different parts of yourself and look and see, oh, this is my younger self that doubts, this is my loyal soldier. This is my businessman.
And you start to see that. But you know you're not that because you're seated in the center. And I know that's a visual that for me, I've now taken into meditation and, and there's others that have done different practices like this. But now it reminds me that these are parts of me, they are not me. I'm the whole, I'm the center. I'm the one that's in the middle of this. And at any given time, you can fold these parts of self after having dialogue, mirror what their concerns, as well as what are their strengths, their gifts and their intentions, behind what they're doing. And now you can start to move them a little closer and a little closer and a little closer until it becomes a more integrated hole. Once more, the experimentation, the testing that, that you described is finding ways to experiment. If you feel like you're getting drawn in a certain direction or even just drawn to feel something or experience something is finding ways to just experiment. You don't need to make a commitment for the next 10, 20, 30 years, make a commitment for 10 minutes on a Saturday, right? It can just be what's the experiment or experiments that I can run. That help me feel like, is this, maybe this is it like, maybe is this is the next chapter for me. But finding ways to experiment is, is really crucial in that
Matt (01:01:57):
One sentence on that the, the action piece. So many of us desire and seek to grow and really connect and live who we are. It's like the joke or however you wanna label it. It was the guy that kept praying every night. Just, I just wanna win the lottery. Just, God, just let me win the lottery, come on, let me win. And then, he is driving to work one day and all of a sudden the clouds open up and God goes, meet me halfway, buy a ticket. And so bring all of that, that circling with yourself, with your coach or whoever you're working with, or even if you're by yourself, start moving that into your life because it's in that tension and that tug and that dance with the internal experience and the acting, you change, and that you become more of who you are.
Billy (01:02:46):
Matt, when, you said, uh, this need for trust being born out of fear and being soft and gentle with our fears. I, I, I think is just, uh, just, there's a lot behind that. I'm gonna spend some time processing that. Um, Luke, uh, I, I also, your imagery of, of being in the center of this table with your multiple selves, I used to walk in the woods with Jesus and Martin Luther King and Gandhi. And I used to ask them questions, my imaginary friends, I think I'm gonna take a new walk, uh, with my multiple selves, uh, later on. I really like the movie Braveheart. There's this line in the movie that says, um, every man dies, but not every man really lives, who waves that I interpret that is most men don't stop in their lives to really reflect on some of the questions that we're asking.
And I, and I just wanna encourage our audience to, to create spaces where they can stop and slow down and experience that stillness. And that second piece of that line is that a lot of men and a lot of people die with their music in them and music is meant to be played and shared, uh, in the same way that, that our stories, they're meant to be shared. And when we do share them, it just creates an unbelievable synergy and music between, you know, people, our, our humanity. And so I just appreciate you guys, uh, for sharing your stories. Uh, Luke, thank you for the invitation. Thank you for linking Matt and I, Matt, I think I'm gonna follow up with you for some other discussions, but what a, what a privilege it is just to be with both of you guys. So thank you for, uh, creating this, this medium by which we can share our stories, man.
Luke (01:04:16):
Billy, I appreciate that. And, and a big thank you to you and to Matt, the way that you both show up both with wisdom, but with heart wide open is a really, really critical piece of what gets shared of how the stories as well as the insights pour out of both of you. And I can tell that you speak from deep experience. You speak from deep passion for both what you have experienced, but also the people that you serve and the way in which you serve them. And I just wanna thank you guys for being here today, to be able to share that with the On This Walk community and audience. Thank you, gentlemen.
Billy (01:04:47):
Thanks for having us, man.
Matt (01:04:48):
Thanks for inviting me to this, this campfire circle. It was fun.
Luke (01:04:52):
Pretty good, right?
Billy (01:04:53):
Most definitely.
Matt (01:04:54):
Yeah, it was nice and toasty and warm, it's good conversation. Some things happened. Some surprises unfolded.
Luke (01:05:00):
For everybody tuning in, I'll be honest, this is one you may wanna go back and listen to. There was a lot that was covered in this time together and around, around this table here, uh, that, that we are, we are all kind of gathered around this fire. And I think some of the biggest things that I wanna encourage you to do, I'm gonna use a little bit of, of Matt, what he brought up of, to acknowledge, to be, to trust. So to be able to acknowledge those, uh, messages, those feelings, those nudges that are coming through, they are coming through. They are absolutely there with you to acknowledge them, to be aware of them and to welcome them in, invite them in. And as you invite them in to be with them, not because you need to immediately go do something, I didn't say do something with them, I said, be with them, be with them for a period of time to sit with them, allow the nudge or the question that's appeared to do its work on you before you need to answer. And when we can be with that, you can be with all the different parts of self that are maybe resonating with or a bit upset or even fearful of what it is that's beginning to enter, but then you can acknowledge those voices as well and continue to be with them and be with those feelings. It opens up so much more perspective when we can just be with what's coming through. And then there is the trust part. And again, that's not an all or nothing thing. Trust is not a, I've got it, I'm gonna go with everything. It's, or it's, or it's an absolute not, it's, it's a process. It's an evolving process.
Why is it evolving? Because there is fear that's still usually associated with it. Otherwise you would already know, and it was a foregone conclusion and you're out the door with it. But when we still more often than not, vastly, more often than not as human beings, we've got this period of growing into that trust, growing into that faith in what it is that has come through to us and to have even trust that maybe it's not the time to do anything. Maybe it's the time to just continue to be with this for now, or maybe does trust, how can I start to just play with this? Just try this, experiment with this, test a little bit and a bit at a time, all of a sudden you find yourself walking the path that was laid out for you all along, but it began with the first step.
It began with the first thing you put into motion. You didn't need to know the other thousand steps. So I want to thank everybody for joining us in this conversation on this walk today, I greatly appreciate you all being here, being part of this conversation. I encourage you to continue this conversation to, to go to onthiswalk.com, jump into the community because we continue the conversation there. Follow along there, participate, continue to put your questions to us, and we are very much looking forward to going on this walk with you for a long time. Once again, I wanna thank Matt, thank Billy, and I wanna thank you for being here until next time. As always, I wanna continue to ask you to continue to enjoy your journey. Thanks for being here. Thank you, gentlemen.
Billy (01:07:57):
Take care everyone.
Luke (01:07:58):
Take care.
Matt (01:07:59):
Bye!
Luke (01:08:02):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.