007 - What Happens When Men Feel Free to Be Vulnerable?

At the beginning of my career, I started and put together what was at the time called a mastermind. This was not like the coaching programs that are out there today – this was a men’s group where you could show up to talk about the things you were focused on, the things you were working on, and the challenges you were encountering. 

There was a great deal of intimacy that developed among the men in this group. The kind of long lasting support we experienced was a lifeline not only for us, but for many men in similar groups who were struggling to find a place in today’s culture. 

I saw that when men find a way of coming together, in a way that’s open and vulnerable and even perhaps contrary to the stereotypes of masculinity perpetuated in our world, we are able to connect with ourselves, our loved ones and our communities in ways we never before thought possible.  

My guests today, Brendon Pardington and Alex Neustein, are two men who have been part of this experience themselves, and who join me today to talk about what this kind of men’s work looks like, what it can do for us, and why it’s so important today more than ever. 


In This Episode

  • (01:15) Why I started my first men’s mastermind group 

  • (06:11) The importance of vulnerability and honesty among men 

  • (13:33) Alex’s experience in a men’s group, despite a lifetime of feeling unsafe around other men

  • (17:20) Brendon’s personal work, and what drew him to the support of a men’s group 

  • (19:53) Alex’s perspective on why so many men feel unsafe around other men

  • (27:33) How relating to other men in a safe space has affected the way Brendon shows up for himself

  • (33:51) Contemplation, discipline, and the art of being present

  • (39:45) What are you anchored to? 

  • (45:30) The power of acknowledging what’s outside of your control

  • (50:55) What being part of a men’s group has taught Alex and Brendon about other men

  • (54:18) Toxic masculinity, and the courage it takes to be vulnerable 

  • (1:00:53) The catharsis of feeling emotion among men who are holding space for you

  • (1:07:06) The importance of somatic work

Notable Quotes

  • “This story that we have told ourselves – that to be there for you means I can't be there for me – can be summed up as ‘I don't feel safe expressing authentically because I'm afraid that my authentic expression will harm you.’ Or ‘I don't feel safe expressing myself authentically because authentically expressing myself will harm me – it will incite your wrath or will incite your anger or will push you away. And I will be abandoned.’ And I think this sense of feeling unsafe is at the heart of the work that I began to do.”

  • “Suffering is necessary, at first you resist it or you react to it, you avoid it, just the classic patterns. But once you're able to accept it, that's the secret to almost everything as far as I can tell, with emotional regulation, with getting along with other people and having powerful, meaningful relationships, having good boundaries, all of that comes from accepting, that's what you want or that's how this is. So that's been something that I've been really focused on, is the acceptance.”

Our Guests

Brendon Pardington is a father, husband, spiritual seeker, and men’s relationship coach. A midlife crisis, job loss and near divorce forced him to start doing the work necessary to create a more meaningful life – and now he helps other men do the same. 

Alex Neustein is an attorney, software developer and graphic designer who has been involved in men’s work for over four years. He is beginning to train as a psychotherapist in order to help others conquer self-defeating patterns, negative self-talk, and social anxiety. 

Resources & Links

On This Walk

  • Luke (00:00:01):

    Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart centered guests each week, as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically. Uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul and with something bigger than ourselves. Now let's go on this walk.

    Welcome, welcome, welcome, and thank you for joining me on this walk. I'm your host, Luke Iorio. Today, we're gonna take an interesting walk because as you know, in recent episodes, I just had this conversation with Andrea Bendewald and Alexis Kahlow around some of the work that they've been doing in circle and specifically some of the women's circles that they have been working through as well as leading for many, many years now. And I wanted to revisit this conversation actually a couple of times from, from different angles, but this time we're doing it with the guys and this kind of goes back this story, this journey actually for men's work, as well as working, uh, within men's groups is something that as I got further into and I was able to reflect on, showed up in many, many different ways in my life.

    I'm not sure if I was even totally present to all of the different ways that this has been, uh, kind of in the background of things for me, for the better part of probably 25 years now. And so way, way, way, way back when at the beginning of, of, of my career, uh, I had started and put together what was at the time, called a mastermind. Now a mastermind back then looked very, very different than the kind of marketing, coaching type programs that are put out today. Very, very, very different origins to mastermind in that sense. And today, if I were actually to look back at that group, it was more of a men's group than anything else. And what was really interesting about that first iteration of the work that I was doing, and I actually had multiple, uh, uh, uh, masterminds, men's groups through those early years, was that it had a certain amount of intimacy to it.

    So there was a way of being able to show up to talk about the things you were focused on, the things you were working on, maybe some of the goals, the aspirations you had, as well as some of the challenges that you were encountering. And because of the way in which you got to know the other individuals in this group, it was very difficult for you to kind of pull the wool over your own eyes or certainly pull it over their eyes. And so there was this great deal of intimacy that would develop that, that would support you in beginning to follow through and really accomplish the types of things that you were after. And as that evolved, and that kind of, uh, continued out for, I was, I guess, in those groups for a good five to six years, and one of the last groups that I was in, had a very interesting distinction.

    This came up in one of the previous conversations with Dre and Alexis, was that every single member of the group, there were five of us that were involved. Every single member of the group went through some form of quitting or career change in the process of being together for about a year. It evoked a great deal of transition for each of us because the deeper and deeper we got into our own process, into the things that were and were not working for us, the things that were really important to us, the things that mattered most in addition to the kind of the goals and the vision that we had set out for ourselves. Well, when you reflect that way, it's difficult to unsee those things. It's really difficult to come face to face with them, and then pretend like you can't see them again.

    And so, uh, it was really interesting because Dre and Alexis, in that conversation actually reflected on something very, very similar for themselves. Well, fast forward, many, many, many, many years, okay. And this is actually very recent in the last, just a year or two. I've had several of these experiences and the most recent of which, which is, is how some of this group together for this chat today comes together, was joining into some programs and some group work through a great organization called Every Man, which focuses specifically on men's group work. And in this process, uh, what's interesting, so the original mastermind, the original men's group that I was working through was much more just dialogue. It was much more just kind of that reflection and dialogue mirroring type of process in the Every Man work. And some of what I've been exposed to, which is why I wanted to bring on the couple of gentlemen who you'll meet in just a short while, was that it takes a much more somatically based approach to doing this type of work.

    And that is something that I gained a tremendous amount of appreciation for in my journey of the last many years, cos as I got into things like mindfulness and meditation, that had a much more of a somatic getting into the body, kind of feel to it, it became clear to me how disconnected I was from this whole body experience that I had below my neck. I lived most of my life from the neck up. And so I was very analytical, very logical and I could explain away a lot of the emotions and the feelings that were underneath, which allowed me to just kind of keep them down while somatic based approach is something that it's very difficult to deny those sensations. It's difficult to deny those emotions when you are slowing down long enough to get into the body and to really feel what's going on.

    And so we're gonna talk a little bit about that today. There was just one other experience of this men's work that I also wanted to share. Cause I wanted to give you a flavor of a few different ways that this could look, was that I've also had the experience of going through something referred to as an anchor council. In this instance, it was part of a very specific program that I participated in around some very deep purpose, sole purpose, sole mission type of work. And in that, I actually needed to assemble a group of individuals that turned out to be all guys, that it was four other men who are holding space for me, as I share what I'm going through on that particular journey on earthing the things I'm encountering and really struggling and getting challenged by. And there's no time, there's like no escape from that environment because literally I'm the subject, I'm the focus of that entire time together.

    And so you can't run away, you can't hide, you can't eat up your time and then move on to the next guy because it's all your time. And it, again, it's something that creates a tremendous amount of vulnerability in the process. A tremendous amount of honesty with yourself and of vulnerability is well to receive, which is also something that, that, that I wanna get into a little bit today because I think that's something that can be very, uh, difficult with men, especially from man to man at times, and to be able to receive that level of support, as well as intimacy in that type of vulnerable space from other men who are holding space for you. And so these were all, these were just kind of three different styles through different flavors. So some very, very unique work that I've done in men's groups through the past, like I said, about 25 years or so.

    And so I wanted to bring this conversation front and center to talk a little bit more with some other men who have been part of this experience, two men that I've actually had the pleasure of getting to know through this type of process and to talk a little bit about what has been our work, what some of this men's work can look like, what are some of the benefits that we've received, especially from a somatic based approach, as well as just some of the ways in which this begins to unfold to give everybody else a sense of what this type of path may look like and what it can reveal, especially when men find a way of coming back together again, in a manner that's very generative, but also very open and vulnerable, which is very different than how we stereotypically may be seen as relating.

    And so with that in mind, I am very, very fortunate as well as happy to bring on this walk with me today, two of those partners in the men's group work. And the first individual that I wanted to introduce you to, and I'm actually gonna read some of those because I think it's really poignant, uh, as the way that Brendon, that you put this together. So, uh, first individual coming on is Brendon Pardington. And Brendon is a 50 year old father, husband, PA, men's relationship coach, rock climber, river rat, spiritual seeker. He, as a result of a midlife crisis, job loss and near divorce, it forced him to take responsibility for his pain to break out of that man box, to heal his relationships and do the work necessary to create a more meaningful life. It became apparent to him that far too many men are struggling and lost and even destroyed in our culture today.

    And he created the men's vitality project to help men quickly and powerfully become the best humans that they can be. The one that their soul is calling them to be. He did that in his relationships and his work, all of a sudden started to fall into place. So when he is not in the clinic and because the soul of men is so easily found and nurtured in nature, you can usually find him out there, healing himself in leading groups to transformation by flowing over rock, through snow, along the river, learning from each other as they go. And so with that, Brendon, thank you so much for joining us on this walk.

    Let me also introduce you to Alex Neustein. Alex, I love the, kind of the medley hear of all of the things that Alex has been involved with, but you'll see the importance of men's work to this journey and where it's going because Alex is an attorney, mediator, software developer, as well as graphic designer. He's been deeply involved in men's work for over four years now and has also worked as consultant for creative professionals. He will soon be joining a psychoanalytic institute in New York to begin training as a psychotherapist with a focus on personal and group safety, self-defeating patterns, negative self-talk, ADHD and social anxiety. Growing up in the heart of New York City, excelling academically, and then professionally, he learned about the masks that we are all taught to wear something you've heard me talk about on this show, haunted by his own fears of judgment, we hide, and thus we court misunderstanding, yet feel wounded when we are misunderstood. His guiding premise is that we can only face the disorder on the outside, if we can make peace with the disorder on the inside, very well said. His years of experience, both in psychoanalysis, as well as men's work, have inspired him to try to help others embrace their inner truths.

    When we tell our own truths, tell our whole truths, our humanity begins to come through and we can connect deeply with ourselves, our loved ones and our communities. And most importantly, in his spare time, he is avid in his singing of karaoke, dances, soaks up all the arts and all of the forms, works out, cooks, as well as plays piano, which I have not yet had a chance to hear him do, but I would like to. Alex, welcome to On This Walk.

    Alex (00:10:42):

    Thank you. Thank you for having me.

    Luke (00:10:44):

    You got it, you got it. Well, gentlemen, I thank you so much for, for joining me here for, uh, joining us here on the show and, and with the audience, uh, I wanna dive right into it for both of you, I guess, to start, cos I think this gives people a little bit of, of more specifics, some context, is to really just talk a little bit about what's at the core of your own personal work right now. I'll even just kind of volunteer, you know, right, right up front for myself of what's been servicing. I think there's probably two major things that I am getting present to. And I use that word intentionally. The first part of it is to slow down long enough for myself to get very present and get connected to the way in which I'm experiencing life. Because when I'm not present the old patterns that start to kick in the desire of, I need to know, I need to know where this is going, I've gotta have clarity around this, the desire to start to control, meaning to, to, no, it's gotta, it's gotta look a certain way because that gives me maybe the illusion of control. It gives me the illusion of safety at different times.

    And so that very much stems from getting very present or getting connected to my current experience and feeling it and, and being there, not just like touching it, thinking about it and moving on. And I think what that really leads to is the second part, which I think to me is, is my own deeper work that I'm integrating, is this really deep trust of that intuitive self, that intuitive voice, that authentic self, however you choose to frame this, that's underneath it all, because I recognize that there are certain messages, certain insights, reflections even, that rise from a deeper place within me and for the better part of my career, better part of my, my adult life, I've ignored a lot of those. And it's, it's at times gotten me to a place where I've been crosswise with self, where I've found myself pursuing things that I was conditioned to want. I, I thought I should want, it was conforming to societal norms, all those types of things. And so the, the deeper I get into presence and knowing what my experience is, the more I can hear that, the more I can really truly begin to, to sense what it's saying. And then it's, how do I begin to trust it and live from that place? Even knowing that at times, that means I've gotta be very straightforward, very honest with some things that maybe are in conflict for me or some things that aren't going well, that I, you know, I, I thought I was going this way and all of a sudden I gotta turn in a different direction and that may upset some people, but it's really getting deeply in touch with that, is a lot, very core to a lot of the work that I'm doing right now. And I guess maybe Alex, if I, if I start with you this time, I'm just kind of curious what, you know, what you can share around, what is it the, the core of your own personal work right now, that's coming up in the work that you're doing.

    Alex (00:13:34):

    So I was struck by the fact that I realized about a year and a half, two years ago, that the reason I joined a men's group in the first place was no longer the reason that I was continuing men's work. I had joined a men's group because for most of my life, I have felt uncomfortable around men. And I realize now that it was fear, but at the time what I had said, in fact, I had said in one of my first men's circles, I think this may have been on my retreat that I hate men. And I said this to a barred room of men, and I think what I was masking at the time was that I felt unsafe around other men. And I was seeking a place where I could begin to build for myself a container of safety so that I could connect with other men who after all are half of the human population that I was missing out on.

    And I joined for that reason. And about two years in, I realized that I no longer felt afraid of men and I, I no longer hate men. And I actually feel a great deal of love for men, for, particularly for the men that I have gotten to know personally, but also for men, many of whom grew up in, in an environment or in a cultural context that I'm not as familiar with and that I'm trying to become more familiar with. And I've gained a new found awareness for the ways in which those, those environments have shaped a lot of the emotional and behavior patterns that we find men exhibiting today. So now my focus on my work is on learning as much as I can about the different and disparate environments and how they have shaped and formed the internal dialogue, the internal voice, the internal patterns that we all carry around within us, particularly for me, the ones that, that I do not, that I don't relate to personally. As I begin this work, I'm noting the, the importance around becoming as, is learning as much as I can about those stories that I don't see myself in.

    As I've gotten to know myself, and as I continue to get to know myself, I'm becoming increasingly curious about all of the different communities, particularly different racial communities, communities of different sexual orientations, different gender orientations and gender identifications. I've been beginning to redirect my lens outward while, while simultaneously keeping an inward lens as well.

    Luke (00:16:21):

    I wanna ask Brendon as well, this question, but something I wanna come back to, is a little bit of that trajectory that you just outlined of getting to a place to create kind of that container of safety and that once we create more of that container, it's easier for us to feel settled so that we can get curious and look outside of ourselves and start to look at, as you said, some of those contexts that we don't normally see ourselves in, we don't understand as well. And so much of the dynamic right now, right? Is that the things we don't understand are the things we don't feel safe around, which are the things we judge and have bias around, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it creates this whole warped little cycle that we can see playing out all over society. I wanna come back to a little bit of that journey, but first Brendon, I wanna, I wanna come back to you as well to ask you to reflect a little bit on, what's been kind of at the core of your own personal work right now and how that's followed the thread of, of the men's work you've been doing.

    Brendon (00:17:20):

    Yeah. I think it's very similar to, to Alex, um, in that there was a, the relationship with other men was just kind of off. In my case, it was, it was more of, um, a competition based issue. And so I, you know, and I don't, I think that that probably goes back to, it's like a, a cycle there. What, where I think, um, some kind of insufficiency, a sense of insufficiency plays into that somehow. And so you look at other men and you try to, you kind of maybe tear them down in some sense. And the other element in the cycle is, is maybe like capitalism, you know, the culture, I think, contributes mightily to this, you know, where we're socialized in this way. You know, men are individualistic, highly individualistic, you know, it's dog-eat-dog out there, you know, and you're wearing milk bone underwear, you know, like to, to quote, uh, Norm.

    And that's just how it is. And so you feel insufficient and now you need to be in competition and you're in competition. And if you lose in competition, then you're insufficient and everyone knows how, you know, no one wants to be a loser that's, you know, and even the President of the United States is, is throwing that around as I think probably the worst thing you could be in the, the ex President's mind. So clearly the culture contributes hugely to it, but also the individual as well. And so that's kind of where I come from, just seeing how, you know, I try to focus on human growth and cultural transformation and really it's that human growth that is going to transform our culture. So my work right now is mostly, you know, still kind of tending toward seeing other men as some kind of competition. And, you know, when we tend toward problem solving a lot, so we're always looking at the negative, you know, I think, you know, humans just do that and our brains are this powerful tool for problem solving, but, and then you're focused on the problem. And so I really look and find the negative and, you know, not just other men, but a lot of things. That was my pattern, and so now it's like, hey, what's here? What's right here? What's right, right here? And so that's a big part of it. And then yes, it is like Alex said, as you can do that more and, and you get to know yourself better, you can see the same things playing out in others around you. And, and then trying to bring that into you.

    Luke (00:19:53):

    Both of you are, and I really appreciate this frame because I think both of you, from different angles, are talking about this feeling of lack of safety, right? Because competition itself, right? Is still an issue of we are competing because the only way we're gonna get safety is we're gonna, we're gonna take it, right? We're gonna, we're gonna control these things or we're gonna be better than, we're gonna be stronger than, right? And it's this power over, as opposed to power with, type of structure. But to me, the, the genesis, what's underneath that is, is that insufficiency is also the insecurity that's underneath there and the lack of safety that's there. What did you need to face in some of the earlier work you were doing around some of those safety type issues? Before you can get safe, you gotta kind of know, well, why do I not perceive safety in the first place? And so I'm just kinda curious what maybe some of your perceptions, what some of those blocks to safety were for, for, for both of you?

    Alex (00:20:48):

    It's a really great question. I think I'm gonna try to answer this question in the form of a story, because it's fresh in my mind. I just heard it, uh, from a friend and this is about another man, but I related to it very personally, she and he have started a romantic relationship and she was telling me a story that is a familiar story, I think to many of us. Things have been going very well, they feel, um, great together. I think it's been going on for maybe three months or so. And as they, as their attachment has grown, she related to me that he started becoming a little bit more distant. And then he said to her that he has this pattern where he finds himself prioritizing the person he's with over his own priorities, that he needs to take a step back because he knows that if he is attached to her, he will be there for her at the expense of his own needs, his own business, his own effects.

    And that he can't handle both at the same time. And he ended the relationship or he attempted to, or he expressed a desire to do so as the only solution he can think of to confront his problem. And when I was listening to this story about a man who says, if I'm with you, I'm only caring about you. I'm not caring about me. So I have to let you go, I can't meet your needs. I'm not, you deserve someone who can meet your needs and that can't be me. This is something that I think all of us have either heard or have perhaps even said ourselves at different times. And I thought of the story, because your question about what are the originating issues around safety that perhaps drew us into this work. And I think this is a model story for that. And I like, I don't know his side of this and I don't know the particulars of their relationship.

    And there may very well be one, it may very well be the case that this is not the relationship for him. And I, you know, I'm not making a commentary on, on him. I'm extracting from that, this, this story that we have told ourselves that to be there for you means we, I can't be there for me. And I think this, that story, which if I may generalize it for a moment can be summed up as I don't feel safe expressing authentically because I'm afraid that my authentic expression will harm you, or I don't feel safe expressing myself authentically because I, because authentically expressing myself will harm me, will incite your wrath or will, well, insight your anger, uh, or will push you away, and I will be abandoned. I think this sense of unsafety is at the heart of the work that I began to do, and I think it's at the heart of what a lot of us struggle with. And for some of us, the beginnings of this work is simply around being able to find a container where we can express our emotions in an environment where we won't harm anyone. And we, where we won't come to harm. For example, telling a group of men that I hate men, knowing that I would be okay, that they would be okay, that nobody would be offended and walk out or take a swing at me, was a first for me. And I think that for many of us, just that alone is, is a paradigm shift, certainly was for me.

    Luke (00:24:26):

    It's extremely well explained and illustrated because so much of what we do when we start to find those patterns within us, that withdraw, right? That begin to withhold, for instance, we are moving away from a given situation. Those are so many, you know, of the unconscious patterns that live within us because we're trying to protect ourselves from what doesn't feel safe. And if we know from, for whatever reason in our history that we had experiences where we felt like we were rejected, or we felt like we'd been abandoned or that we expressed ourselves, and then we were immediately punished for it, or there was a consequence to it, or, you know, there was, there was something there that then kind of shut us down for being able to express that freely in the future. And we're gonna consistently find ways to avoid that. And whether it's by withdrawing or whether it's by completely antagonizing a situation to intentionally break about an effect that gets you bounced out of the situation, many different ways of interacting with it, but what you tied it to, which I think is really interesting is having a place, having a space where you can freely express those emotions and know they're not going to be judged.

    They're going to be accepted as they are, and they're gonna be held within a container of safety so that you can do the work, meaning you can figure out, okay, you know what? I haven't had the chance to express my emotions freely in 30 years. So let me try this on for size once or twice. And then if you get into that pattern of being able to do that and realize, oh, not only is it being accepted here, but I'm finding a way of articulating it or tapping into it in a manner that feels more authentic, that I feel more confident in expressing. Now it begins to transfer out of the safe space, out of the gym, so to speak, the emotional gym and into the relationship issues or the career issues, cos this is not only just intimate relationships, it's professional as well, but being able to voice that, which is uncomfortable to voice that, which is, is on an edge for you and you're growing that type of strength. And I think actually the, the interesting thing is that by growing that type of strength and then expressing that way, you are creating your own container of safety in these new environments within you feel more regulated, you feel more connected to who you are and you can portray it that way. And you even feel safe, even if you are gonna get blow back, cos the other person, maybe hasn't done their work and they're not ready for that conversation. You feel like I was able to step into that. I was able to get to that place.

    Now, Brendon, let me just, just see, how is this sitting with you? How does this resonate with even some of what you've experienced in some of your own path, both in terms of what you've seen in men's work scene, maybe even with your own clients, as well as just what you've experienced in the way in which as you've gotten that chance to practice in that savor space, how that's affected the way that you communicate or the way you show up in relationship, or even just show up for yourself?

    Brendon (00:27:34):

    The walls are always there. I mean, you know, we have to, we shift back and forth between needing intimacy and needing some time alone. And it's just a constant dance, requires a lot of balance. And the reasons that you go to each, you know, as varied as each person, what was really helpful was some of the psychology typing systems, you know, Myers Briggs, or the Enneagram or any of that stuff. So I think it, at the root of it, for a lot of people as this insufficiency thing, but, and it's hard for me to sometimes get away from the philosophy of it all, you know, like the subject-object split and you know, I mean we grow up, you know, it's hard at first we think everything is us, you know, and then we learn gradually there's me and not me, but it's still predicated on me.

    And so it's hard and you know, you're just egotistical and it's all very necessary. That's what's, you know, strikes me so much is that, so all of this stuff is so very necessary to just individuation and this need for, you know, we need connectedness, but then we need to individuate, you know, I mean, it's just this constant balance and play and dance between all of them. And you know, for me it was the competition, you know, being, um, in a lot of ways, you know, just sadly, just had everything that I ever needed and being born in a white body as a male, it's all right there. And so it was just really easy to have everything up until a certain point when everything, you know, came crashing down around me when, you know, I almost lost my family and my job. And that was just egotistical, you know, staring only at what I needed people would say, you know, you're really pretty self-involved, you know, and all you care about is yourself and you know, I'm like, but isn't, aren't we all that way? Don't, you know, whose bank account do you put your money into? You know, like I would come back with things like that and just be completely unaware. And so it really just took even just the awareness of, it really comes down to like personal responsibility for me and just accept like other people are just, you know, as important as me, which is, you know, the opposite.

    Luke (00:30:06):

    How did that finally kick in for you? Like what was either the moment or series of moments, cos it's usually not just one thing, that it all of a sudden kind of broke that wall, broke that tunnel vision and widened things for you?

    Brendon (00:30:17):

    Suffering is necessary, you know, at first you resist it or you react to it, you know, you avoid it, just the classic patterns. Um, but once you're able to accept it, I mean, that's the secret to almost everything as far as I can tell, you know, with, with emotional regulation, with, you know, getting along with other people and having powerful, meaningful relationships, having good boundaries, all of that comes from accepting, that's what you want or, or that's how this is. So that's been something that I've, you know, been really focused on is the acceptance. And that's what we really focus a lot on. And every man, you know, what's happening in your body and as an indicator of what that emotion is and, and accepting it is the first step, you know, there's several others, but yeah, acceptance is.

    Luke (00:31:11):

    Two things that, that I wanna kind of point out from what you've brought up. One is whether it's at dance analogy or, or what you described, even of cycles, that we're gonna go through these patterns of times where we feel like we want to be more connected, times where we may feel like we need a little more space for ourselves. Just as an example of, of the cycles, the patterns, the swells that we seem to go through and being able to have those types of spaces using a, a men's group as an example, that's almost like one of those common touch points that we can keep coming back to so that if we're moving in one direction, we have a touchpoint that says, is this where you need to be? Are you moving too far? You moving too slow? It gives you a chance to settle back in.

    And then if you're moving back in the other direction, again, there's that common touchpoint. You keep coming back to level set to make sure that you're conscious about where you are in these patterns and whether that's where you need to be, or whether that's a distraction mechanism or an old pattern that's coming back up. I think the other thing that you brought up, which was towards the end, obviously of what you were saying was around acceptance. I think this is interesting. I, I guess I'm, I'm curious for both of your reaction, cause I think this is what stands out for me with this, is how often I've seen in myself, I've seen with other men through group and all sorts of other work, that we are trying to solve something before we even accept what it is, right? We're trying to push forward and we're responding to it or reacting to it or trying to solve for it or fighting against it, resisting it.

    And we haven't stopped long enough to just say, this is what it is, full stop, period, breathe, feel it, and just be with it for a moment. And instead it's like, if I'm with it and that accepting it means that I'm making it okay that I'm agreeing with it or I'm consenting to it, or I'm resigning myself to it. It's like, no, it's none of those things. Accepting it is a recognition. It's a recognition of just, this is what it is at the moment. And if you can be with it long enough to slow down and allow the tension of that slow down, you may realize you don't need to do anything about it. It's just a, you're spending so much time trying to avoid the feeling or fix it without actually having even felt it. Im just kind of curious for you guys, cos it's, to me, there's an element that, of, of the work that I've seen us do, the work I've seen groups do, et cetera, where more often than not, and Brendon you gave the example of starting with our bodies as the example, of turning towards something and slowing down long enough to name it and to be with it before we even need to figure out if we need to do anything with it. So I'm just kinda curious what that, that brings up for you guys. As we kind of reflect further into that.

    Brendon (00:33:52):

    Basically you just described contemplation and the importance of contemplation and, and everything. And I, and I think you even discussed it briefly in your intro, just being able to slow down long enough to be present. And that's just what that is just a, a reflective practice. And that's what comes up for me is that contemplation, but also the practice of these things to go through them, move through them. You're not gonna be great at first, but you're practicing and you'll continue to practice. And just like with everything else you practice, you're going to get better and better. And that's really the best way through. And it does require discipline and people tend to not be big fans of, of discipline sometimes, especially in these sort of like esoteric fields where you don't have anything tangible to point to as a payback for your discipline. But in fact it's really the, the invisible things that are the most important for all of us.

    But we forget that in our, in this modern time, I mean it just the, um, other night I was, I was climbing and you know, I've been hesitant on leading a little bit, little bit, you know, a little bit nervous about, you know, oh, what if I fall? You know, and just that feeling, it's scary. You know, there's a lot of fear there. And I was like, you know, I told my partner, uh, before I headed up, I said, I'm gonna look down. I'm gonna make sure you're ready. And then I'm gonna fall. I need to get this behind me. And so I got up there, looked down, he's okay, I'd let go. And I dropped about twice as far as both of us thought I was going to drop. I mean, it was a good, I think it was either 15 or 20 feet.

    It like, yeah, he, because you don't wanna short rope it, you don't want to keep it too short where you get jerked and there's a lot of rope stretch. So he left some out, I fell a good bit and then the rope stretches it. Um, it's like what a dynamic ropes made to do, to absorb, so it doesn't just pull stuff out the rock. So it was great. Like, I, I was, I was scared. I loved it and it taught us both a lot. So, and it could even come back to save one of our lives, who knows? Because we realize now this is a reminder, neither of us has taken a, a leader fall in a long time. And it is like, oh, we're out there in the real thing. You're gonna need to be a little bit closer. So I think there's a pretty tight analogy between practicing what you're afraid of and having a payoff big time, you know, when you really need it.

    Luke (00:36:24):

    There is a lot there in that analogy of, uh, and I actually even like the, the name of leader fall for that, right? Because that's so much of, of what we are doing through our own group work, et cetera, is how often we are stepping in and saying, you know, what, if I'm gonna fall, let me fall here, is seeing facilitators very intentionally step in and say, actually, I'm gonna show you how this can go wrong, or I'm gonna go this way. I'm gonna go that way. I'm gonna practice something I've never done before. The more and more we get to do that, that builds, exactly as you said, the skills that it's gonna come up, this is gonna happen at some point in your life, in the future. Uh, maybe not on a rock face, but you know, somewhere else and you're gonna need it at those times. And so the best way to do that is, is, you know, it's the proverbial practice, but to practice in this type of environment where you're getting that type of reflection, you're getting that type of center and you're getting that type of presence and you can really try it out and lean into that type of experience.

    Brendon (00:37:20):

    Just have a lot of confidence. And that's kind of what my goal is overall, is to be able to like have contemplation and a practice. But then also that enables me to, when I do go on autopilot, because I am going to, that I close that gap between who I, you know, wanna be and who I really am.

    Luke (00:37:46):

    Isn't that the journey to close the gap between who I am and who it is I wish to become. This is a big conversation, but I wanted to point a few things out. First, who I want to be or wish to become. This is actually what got me off course. In the first episode, I shared that I had this feeling of leaving home, of leaving my essential self. I left because I thought I needed to become something or someone, whether it's this influence of society and family or overcoming the circumstances and even pains in traumas of our youth. We go out into the world looking to grow into something. And most often we forget what it is that we really want for what we already are to grow out of us and permeate our lives. What actually most serves us is to fill our lives full with our essence, our authenticity, our innate design and voice, instead of looking to be fulfilled by something in our lives.

    The first is inner fulfillment, fully fulfilling life with who we truly are. The second is external fulfillment, being fulfilled by something outside of ourselves. And for that, we need to become something that fits that external circumstance, regardless of whether that's actually aligned for who we really are or not. Closing the gap is actually about letting go of all that we are not. It's about letting go of the attachments, letting go of the fears, letting go of the commitments and obligations and entanglements that hold us back from being able to settle into the truth of who we are and what we are uniquely designed to bring into this life. This often means coming face to face with the attitudes, beliefs, even lifestyle choices that we've made. And if any of those don't lead us to the feeling of simplicity, of feeling stable and grounded within our lives, then we need to let them go. And this, this letting go, it can feel like a leader fall, as Brendon was speaking about. It can feel like we are falling as we let go of the things we once depended on to keep us anchored, but ask yourself, what are you anchored to? And that's the last thought and question I wanted to leave you with. What are you anchored to? Are you anchored to the beliefs, practices, relationships, work, and habits that bring you into deeper and deeper alignment with who you really are? Or are you anchored to situations, commitments, people and organizations that are happy to have you on autopilot to just keep your and their status quo going, to keep you from pausing and consciously asking these questions? What are you anchored to? And does it help emerge what is truly who you are?

    I wanna talk a little bit about this quality, this, this characteristic of integrity when it comes to men's work, because there was something you just brought up there, Brendon, around this gap of who we are and who it is that we want to be. And there's also, there's all sorts of other gaps, the, the gap of what we're experiencing on our inner world versus the way that we're portraying it to the outer world and a difference between what is and what we want it to be, right? All different ways of portraying these, these different gaps, the way that we've been taught either through competition or through the lack of safety that we've experienced, or any of these other examples that we've talked about with men, is that when we feel that gap, integrity usually is leaning into the vulnerability of that and owning it and saying, there's a gap here. I can feel the gap. I can feel the anxiety of that. I can feel that this isn't the way that I'd like it to be.

    But most of the way that we see in the stereotypical conditioning is it's like, no, don't do that. You're admitting weakness. You're admitting vulnerability. You can't do that. You know, you gotta solve for it and you gotta do it this way. And the whole time you can feel that integrity getting stretched, cos you can feel that it just doesn't feel aligned or congruent with who you really are. You know, you're faking it and either faking it, even if it's for good reasons, I'm not saying there's not, you know, noble reasons at times behind that, but you can feel it getting, getting really kind of stretched in that regard.

    Alex, if I, if, I guess I may just, you know, turn to you in terms of some of the work that you've seen. So this is to me where I've seen some of the most incredible growth in men's work and, and in the men that we've worked with and, and, and been as well, is the way in which they can own that inner experience and the reality of what's going on and how the effect of that on a man's integrity has been incredibly profound, at least in, in what I've seen. And I'm just kinda curious for, for your own perspective, cause I know you've had, you've had experiences with, with this within groups.

    Alex (00:42:49):

    Just briefly going into the effect of, of, of healing and confronting this gap that you described, the gap between who we, who we want to be and, and, and where we find ourselves now. I just wanna take a, a quick detour and say, I wanted to remark on what we were talking about a little bit earlier. I think that there is a, I'm not particularly educated in this area. So I'm, I'm, I'm just speaking on behalf of my own hunch, but that there is a peculiar lived experience for a straight, white, Cis man who is not in poverty, in which is that, and I'm in that group. So we, in that group, at least I, I received messaging from an early age that can be summed up as whatever I want to do, I can do. And there is nothing that's really out of my control and that messaging was first conveyed as a collective, as in, this is true for everyone.

    So for as an early age, it was, we are all like this. There's nothing that's out of any of our control. And recognizing that, first of all, we are impervious to many of the social forces that make a message like that fall land quite poorly for people who are all too familiar with feeling like there are huge, huge things that are out of their control. And then how did I, I guess, wrestle initially with the fact that it feels like there are many things that are out of my control and I think it's difficult to, I think everyone, at least every, everyone in this group, everyone in, in the group that I identify as, has to go through an initial shame journey where we forgive ourselves for feeling out of control, in spite of all of, in spite of all of these advantages that we have at that point.

    There's the question that you brought up here, which is how do we confront the gap and, and how do we allow ourselves? And I think that there is something unintuitive. The reason I brought this up initially is that there's something peculiarly unintuitive about admitting to ourselves that there are things that are quite simply out of our control or right now, or there are things for which we don't have the tools, or there are problems that we don't know how to solve. And when you said Luke earlier, you know the idea that you don't need to do anything. When I heard that, I also heard like sometimes it's taken me many, many years to be able to say to myself that I don't know what to do. When I'm confronted with something, to be able to just say, I don't know what to do and to feel like that might be okay, not to know what to do.

    And I think that posture of feeling unresourced, that posture of feeling incapable, of feeling like there are things that are out of our control, is a different journey for me and for, I think, many Cis, straight, white men than it is for other people. I think for, for us to be able to shoulder the responsibilities that we have socially, I think that requires a paradoxical acknowledgement, at least at the beginning, that we don't know what to do and that we feel pressure to know what to do. I think that's the beginning of it. I think for me the beginning is to feel that nakedness and to be able to feel exposed in that way to at least in my case, other, a room full of other men, but also just to the world as we, as we perceive it, those are my initial thoughts on this.

    Luke (00:46:38):

    It's a wonderful acknowledgement, this nakedness of not knowing and being able to own that part of this, that there are things that are quite many things that are out of our control and being able to understand and be willing to go into that position to be with that because it's, you know, when you, you look at it so much of what we all grapple with men, women cross gender, cross race, cross orientation, and, and what not, is this massive fear of the unknown and of the uncertain and how much of our existence is in grappling with that uncertainty. And we, at times, you know, pretend it's not there, we pretend that we've got maybe these foundations or, or what have you that are in place. And yet being able to, you know, come to a place where we can name it, we can accept it and we can say, okay, let's put voice to that. I don't know.

    Alex (00:47:37):

    Yeah. And I think for most of us, at least, at least for me, and I don't know anyone for whom this is not the case, the initial steps, at least for a Cis straight, white man, in beginning this knowledge of the world as it is, comes from a big fall and having to get back up. And for anyone who's not in this group, it's, as it has been explained to me, it is more or less a matter of life and death. That one be aware of this. There isn't really an option not to know this and it, and, and parents teach the different, uh, force of safety that are at work. Whereas in fact, for a Cis straight, white man, it is, it is an option not to be aware of this stuff. One can, one can live a prosperous and successful life without ever having any understanding of that.

    And, and I think that's why for the people who I know who have begun this work, it took something profoundly unsettling in their personal life. And that was, at least that was certainly very true for me to kind of wake me up. And I think it's an important thing to understand that, that distinction, because for me, the work is necessary and important, but it, and it's important for our, the way in which we can, we, as men can reach our own potential, but it's also, I think, I think reaching that potential means, and is inextricably intertwined with kind of joining the global conversation. And for me, the knowledge that I didn't know what to do was the beginning of truly listening to other people.

    Luke (00:49:04):

    If I bring us around on that, because it's something actually that Alex you opened up with and, and feels like a place that maybe we can, we can come around on, uh, at the moment was that part of your work, and it's the, that ability of, you know, the, the places that you, you couldn't see yourself in, it is these other backgrounds, their storylines, these other upbringings. Uh, and, and what have you, all of these different places that you could not see yourself in, that because of this work, there has been this openness and curiosity that has been born that desires that connection, that deeper understanding. And I think it's the, for me, one of the other ways that I, I would describe it is that as I've been in groups like this, that feeling of, this even came up in a conversation with a previous show with, with Aaron Kahlow and Ashanti Branch, the feeling of otherness begins to drop, not to say that we don't have other circumstances that are very different from each other, of course we do. But the feeling that that person is the other, drops. And we can now cross what used to be a chasm and say, I wanna know you, and I wanna know your background. I wanna know how life has been so different to you. So I guess maybe that is my, my kind of question to both of you to all three of us, is what is it that you have learned about other men in this process that has fostered this deeper sense of connection and connectedness or togetherness, uh, that brings down those walls of people being the other that we have to compete against or be afraid of, or, or be biased against. And so I'm just curious, what, what else maybe, or what else you would just like to even wrap up with that is around what you've learned about other men through the process and through the work that you have been through?

    Alex (00:50:56):

    Well, I, I, I wanna be sensitive to terminology briefly. Again, I just wanna disclaim that I'm not an expert in this. I don't speak as one, but, but my understanding of otherness is that it is a real thing and that it is a position of, of unique safety to be able to feel like otherness sometimes exists and sometimes doesn't. And I agree that there are times that I do lose sight of otherness. I think that would be expected of, of all three of us. And, but I do wanna say that in terms of the way we're using the word here, as in, and the, the idea that there are people that in our personal story, we have been afraid of, who for us were the unfamiliar, unknown, and therefore scary group. For me, it was men of all races for Brendon and Luke may, may be different.

    I do say, I mean, my initial fear around men has had to do with my childhood story and my, and stories of, of, of being bullied and that kind of thing. It was my initial idea to try to begin confronting my fears around men through controlled exposure, I suppose. Um, if I were to borrow a behavioral term and for me it was successful because in reality, other men are not much of a threat to me. Um, it was just my story. So that's, that was why I wanted to draw the distinction between a perceived threat and a real threat. Um, for me, you know, other men are not as scary as I imagine that they were, there are other sources of fear that are very real, require, I think a different kind of work, but for me, and I think for all three of us, men's work, at least creates that initial space and time to begin to go into what we've been afraid of for most of our life.

    Luke (00:52:40):

    Brendon, for you?

    Brendon (00:52:41):

    Yeah. I think, um, you know, working with men is I really important. I mean, we share so much of the same conditioning, you know, I think especially, I mean, maybe for my age group more so, we had to kind of break out this man box, but there's a, we share a lot. Um, so I think it's important that we yeah, move past it, like me, not me, you know, otherness stuff and, and recognize that even though these people, you know, the, regardless of race, orientation, anything, you know, as we all come just so different, but really at base, we're just so very similar and that's been great about doing this work was just, we're all so different, and yet we're so similar. And, and the idea that, you know, uh, this may upset some people and it's needlessly graphic. I'm not sure of a better, you know, quaint saying, but, you know, there's more than one way to skin a cat, their way is, is fine. You know, and this other way is fine too. And where did they get that idea? They learned it, it was taught to them, you know, they drank it in their mother's milk, just like I drank the idea of what I should be doing, and just like they drank the idea of what they should be doing. So, you know, becoming aware of these things and working through and, and yes, exposure therapy is, uh, is crucial. Um, whether it's falling off of a rock or getting to know men, I think it's the way to go.

    Luke (00:54:18):

    And I think the, uh, among the, the many, many things, uh, that I've learned, you know, of, of other men, of, of men in general, in this process. And maybe I have to say more as, as what I've learned and maybe what I've been inspired by might be a different way of saying this as well, because, uh, I acknowledge both of, of exactly what you guys have said, uh, in terms of what's been learned, it's that there is such an unbelievable capacity to have the courage to be vulnerable. That is a, uh, not always the forefront conversation in men's work. I cringe every time I have gone online, or if I'm on social media and I see the latest, I'm gonna be a warrior type, you know, mentality and everything else. I just kind of cringe of what, you know, how much it relates to some, some really old paradigms that even if it's being used in a different way, it's just, it, it's like the energy of that just still creeps in on me.

    And it's because of what I've seen. And some of the, the greatest braveries for the most extraordinary courage has been to watch men and be part of these experiences, fully own the vulnerable nature of where they stand at any given moment to face issues, wounds that they've walked around with for 30, 40, 50 years or longer, and to be able to openly like discuss it and bring it up and feel it in front of a group of other men, whether it be a small group or a large group has been insanely inspiring. And it's not one guy, like I'm seeing it from all these guys that, that, that participate and show up in this way. And that creates a different connection among us, but it also creates a different permission for other men to show up that way. And it, it starts to spread like this beautiful, like waterfall effect, uh, maybe pun intended there with the tears, I don't know, but you see it and you see it just start to spread in this really beautiful way.

    And I think the, the more that, you know, these types of groups, whether it be every man or many of the other groups that are out there, they're doing wonderful work. The more that we practice that side, the, you know, the emotional capacity that we talked about before, as an example, the emotional capacity, the somatic capacity, the, uh, capacity for acceptance and presence, building that courage to, to own the integrity gap, to own and step into the spaces of vulnerability, that's a gym that we haven't been going to. And the more that we go there, and frankly, we're using that a whole lot more than we're, you know, lifting 150 pounds over our heads. So if we could develop that kind of strength with our emotions and with our awareness and with our nervous systems, that's gonna show up in such powerful ways, in all aspects of our life.

    I've watched this process unfold. I've been part of this process of seen and had my own experiences within those types of process, where there is so much beautiful vulnerability among the men that I have seen. And like I said, of all different shapes and sizes and types, and however we wanna label ourselves, there's such beauty in, in seeing some of that across all of that, with the way that some of these men show up. And that to me gives me, not only it gives me inspiration, gives me hope, gives me a lot of hope. And it's why it's one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you guys together with me today and, and to, to share some of this openly, is to encourage more and more men to try something like this out, find a men's group, check out every man, check out whatever's local to you. Uh, there's some other really cool organizations that, that I know of as well, that are, that are out there.

    And you'd be shocked. And I understand the first couple times you show up the first couple of things you go to is it's probably gonna feel really awkward. It's gonna feel totally outta place. You're not gonna feel like you're in your own skin at those moments. Uh, you're not gonna be sure what to share. You're, you know, you're gonna feel all those things you're gonna, you know, wait till it comes around, you know, to, to you to speak up on something and you're gonna feel like, oh, well, I've gotta put out a good story. Now I gotta talk about how I am. I gotta look good. That's what it's gonna be for the first couple, couple of shares and meetings. It's okay, but you stick with it. And these are, these are a couple of guys that, that, that have been sticking with it and they've been doing their work. And you can tell there's a different nature that is emerging, which to me is a, a truer nature, more essential nature.

    Alex (00:58:44):

    I just wanna tell a quick story about my first day in a group. And that story is when I, the first day I joined a men's group. At that point, I had not cried in about 20 years, and I didn't think I could, and I didn't cry that day either. But what happened was the first guy who shared, you know, a share is the, where he expresses his feelings for certain period of time with the support and assistance of the other men. I think he had gotten maybe three or four words out and he started bawling. He started having heaving, full body socks. And I remember my reaction was I was completely taken aback. I felt very uncomfortable. I was like, I don't know what to do. Should I do something? Should I put my arms around him? I don't even know what he's crying about.

    I wanted to ask him, tell me everything that happened so I could hear what had happened. So I could tell him how to solve this problem. And as I was watching the other guys who just sat there and, and said, yeah, yeah, more of that, more of that, let it out. I began to feel envy. I remember walking away from that saying, I don't know if I'll ever be able to do what he did, but I, I, I hope that I can someday. And that was a, an important modeling moment for me because my posture, when I showed up was one in which crying felt weak and like the sort of thing that women do. And the sort of thing that you know, was a model of, of inner strength that I just didn't buy into. And I continued to, to maintain that throughout, throughout the beginning of, of that group session. But by the end, I noticed that living underneath that was a, a deep desire to release intense, emotional, intense feelings. Um, and that this was something I really wanted and needed. And I think that, that we, human beings need to be able to release emotions safely and fully in a, in a somatically grounded and physical way, and being able to see him do that made a huge difference for me. So I, I, I just wanted to agree with what you were saying.

    Luke (01:00:54):

    I really appreciate it. And it's interesting, cos I guess the one piece I'll add to that, is that in feeling that emotion in allowing it out to be in that safe somatic and grounded place, it also just takes on something totally different when you are in a group that's holding a circle, that's holding that space for you. Cos you can do that, you can have those individual releases that are very, very powerful and can be very grounded and you can do all the things, right? But to be witnessed in that adds just a, a very different element to this. And it's the part that no matter how, to Brendon, something you said before, no matter how individualistic we believe ourselves to be at any given moment, we're social beings, right? That's, it's baked into the nature of who we are we're meant to gather. And so there's something about that ability to be in that deep space and be witnessed.

    And I know the moments that I have, have had and, and experienced, oh, I can just recently, I can think of, I, I said in the, in the opening around this anchor council that I've been part of, which is literally just holding space for me around this particular, uh, work I've been doing and to be able to, to break down in those moments with people that have known me, men that have known me for 30 years, who have never seen me break down, never seen me cry and yet to feel so accepted and seen in that experience, and after that experience, it is so freeing and liberating and it's clearing on a whole different level. So anyway, I, I just wanted to add that on, yeah.

    Brendon (01:02:28):

    Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the catharsis of, you know, grief is just really powerful and, and I just wanted to add to that, you know, for me, you know, I I'm fairly utilitarian, so I just have to embrace that part and I accept it and I embrace it. But I think, you know, it's important to recognize that, you know, the goal of all of this, at least my goal isn't to learn how to emote better in a group of men in a controlled situation, but it's to be able to take that out and be that way with my kids, with, you know, men that I just meet at a Rite of passage, you know, and be able to go deep instantly to just be with a group of friends and not chitter chat about small talk, but to have meaningful conversation that could maybe be overheard by the people next to you who are inspired to do their own meaningful conversation or, or role model, that kind of stuff for them. So, you know, you mentioned taking that out into all parts of our lives, but really describing how that can look like and how you can transform your work culture. And I mean, we all think that we're stuck in these boxes, but those are just the stories that we tell ourselves and you, you see these other ways and it just really cracks you open and makes you really see what's possible out there. And that, for me, that's a huge part of it.

    Luke (01:03:47):

    Brendon, thank you for grounding it that way because I, one is, you know, immediately for myself, you know, I, I begin to think of, of my son and I, I recognize in him how he's a very, very, uh, empathic young man. And that's something that doesn't always compute in society, is an empathic little boy, right? Or a young boy. And so to be able to encourage that, which I don't know if I could have done 20 years ago, like that was not my persona. My persona was, oh, no, we squashed that. Let's just tuck those emotions down deep, right? And toughen up, right? Man up. Those, those brutal words of man up. And, you know, but to be able to encourage that and to be able to say, no, no, no, no. To keep in that because that's where your creativity and your connection and like your intuition. And there's like so much that comes from him because he has that. And so it's like, I never would've, you know, that's like I said, that's not stuff that I would've known to encourage. And then the other thing you mentioned, I was just laughing because I know of times that I've been in conversation with just a friend or two, uh, who've been around work like this before, and we're in deep, deep conversation and we could be sitting at the corner of a bar or we could be at a coffee shop or something like that. And inevitably, it's a bartender will wander over or somebody who is sitting next to us will start to go, can I just ask you guys something about that? Because there, it's just a very different way of relating. It's not your usual chit chat and we want that. That's exact, to your point, that's what we want to continue to bring out.

    Brendon (01:05:20):

    I think is, our soul is calling for that. You know, we're, we're hemmed in on all sides, but that's what our soul really wants is just to be free and, and love essentially. But there's all these reasons that we don't. And if you can, and you can let it go. And that's what, you know, Alex was saying. I mean, this kind of behavior doesn't get role modeled for you where you don't learn it. And you're 50, 60, 65, it's gonna get harder and harder. And then that's, you know, I mean a lot, there's a lot of suicide and men who, they have that falling down moment, that utter failure, you know, you have to face and suffer and you just don't have those resources and it's tragic consequences. And that's why this work is so important.

    Luke (01:06:08):

    You brought up one other thing there just simply because of, of bringing, you know, that's part of what soul spirit, essence core, what consciousness, whatever we wanna refer to it as, uh, wants to come out. And it's just one other thing I want to kind of call back into this conversation, which is the importance of the somatic work that specifically you, the three of us have been doing it through the Every Man Organization, but, but it's connected in other areas as well. And the reason why I bring that somatic work back up is that ability for us to downregulate our nervous system, to get the body in a position where it doesn't need to be in a fight flight freeze, threat response kind of mode, we forget or we don't, most of us don't even realize how the body is just teaming with those types of hormones and chemicals throughout our bodies over and over and over again, because society technology, media, capitalism, commerce, et cetera, wants you over stimulated because that's how they connect you to the next thing, right?

    And so the importance of being able to get into that grounded physiological state, to slow things down in that manner so that the system can come, the physical system and the emotional system that lies on top of it can come back into alignment, that then allows you to connect in a deeper way. It's what allows you to then tap into that, that deeper energy, that core, that soul that wants to come out. It's very difficult for that to show up. If you can literally feel the fight flight response is just teaming throughout your body. And so, uh, I just wanted to, to say that's also an important part of this work is yes, you can learn that again through meditation, mindfulness, somatic type work. And also when you can do that in a co-regulation format, you learn how to do that, not just on your own in solo, but how you actually can be the one that creates co-regulation within a group.

    And so for everybody, that's, that's had the chance to tune in, that's had the chance to listen to this. Uh, I encourage you to check out men's groups to check out men's work and I'll even only cause I, I know this as well about every man. I'm sure it's true for other organizations that, uh, uh, some of the greatest, uh, amount of referrals doesn't come from the guys, it comes from their partners. Uh, so it's okay too, send your guy, this is work that's so important to the world. And it, it, it brings us number one, in connection to ourselves, which is where so much of this needs to begin so that we can feel that safety and that sense of connection that, that, that sense of, uh, being at home within one's self again. But if we can do that in a group format, I find the way that it spreads out in the collective to get amplified as well as even your own experience gets amplified and accelerated in beautiful ways. So I really wanna encourage everybody to, to check that out. Uh, so for everybody, you know, I thank you as always, uh, for being here on this walk and until we meet again, until next time down the road, I ask you to continue to enjoy the journey. Thanks for being here.

    Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on Community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join. Until we go on this walk again, I'm Luke Iorio. Be well.

Feliz Borja