040 - Tapping the Inner Resources: Changing Life with Embodiment
This week on "On This Walk" my walking partners Debra Hess and Matt Hogan will challenge your thinking as we examine the influence embodiment has on our feelings and sense of self-alignment connecting with our bodies and finding inner peace.
We go into the concept that embodiment is the key to experiencing genuine vitality, and how letting go of inhibitions and embracing every sensation may free our full potential. Debra and Matt share rituals and advice that might help us feel comfortable expressing our feelings and tapping into our intuition.
Listen as we help you overcome your inhibitions and see your feelings as a force for a positive change in your life.
In This Episode
(13:35) Overcoming the fear to find inner alignment.
(16:09) Is embodiment the key to feeling alive?
(19:48) Embracing vulnerability and shedding fears
(25:15) Unleashing the power of emotions
(32:11) Discovering inner guidance and the hallmarks of an embodiment for a lighter life
(43:53) What are we really after?
(47:48) Unleashing creative solutions through love, and exploring uncertainty
(49:43) The path to co-creation and inner wisdom
(57:52) The journey of threading versus the journey of evolving
(01:05:35) Uncovering the hidden forces behind our emotions
Notable Quotes
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“A big piece of this is restoring the balance that our systems naturally have, but have then lost their way because of all the holding, all the suppressing. And so in that vein, something that's been really useful for me to create safety and create my willingness to move forward and trust this path is having time devoted like a ritual, a container in my morning that I said this time is for me to feel everything that I need to feel and literally put it all on the table and literally have this demarcation point into this container and out of this container.”
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“There's an infinite amount of possibilities within us. And once you come in and realize that there are resources, there's an inner resource designed by your divinity to help you access and co-create these solutions that are far beyond what your mind could come up with. Your mind has knowledge, experience, and buffers. Your intuitiveness and your wisdom don't feel those risks, and so it presents them as you take that dive in, knowing there's mystery and unknown, and being comfortable with the unknown as this place of possibility.”
Our Guests
Debra Hess is a sacred midwife who helps others navigate the Narrow Gate of Love. With years of psychotherapy, 500 hours in yoga teacher training, a Bachelor's degree in Music Therapy, and certifications in Laughter Yoga and Yoga Nidra, Debra has honed her skills in guiding individuals toward peace, wholeness, and happiness. Through her own healing journey, Debra has discovered that all of existence flows through us, and she considers it an honor to serve others with the joy that overflows from her own awakening.
Matt Hogan is a self-mastery enthusiast and coach who has dedicated his life to living in alignment. From battling depression and attempting suicide to reaching the heights of corporate success and traveling the world, Matt's personal journey has inspired his work in helping prominent entrepreneurs, executives, and change-makers bring their full selves into their work and relationships.
Resources & Links
On This Walk
Debra Hess
Matt Hogan
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[00:00:00] Debra: So if we stay with creativity as this wellspring that comes from within us, we're actually accessing wisdom and knowing very different than our intellect.
[00:00:13] Luke: Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its realness. I'm Luke Iorio. Please join me iand my brilliant heart-centered guests each week as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul, and with something bigger than ourselves.
[00:00:34] And let's go on this walk. Hello there everyone, and welcome once again to On This Walk. This is a bit of a special episode for a number of reasons. Part of that is some of the guests that are here, and we're gonna get to that in just a little while. What I wanted to begin with is a little bit of background as to why this conversation today.
[00:00:54] And I've known a lot of reflecting on this. Maybe it's because it's come up in some of the episodes that I've shared with you, but also I've been interviewed on a, on a bunch of other podcasts and this seems to be coming up and quite appropriately. It came up before I already had this, this episode scheduled.
[00:01:09] And so I guess there's a reason for it. And what I wanted to share is that for so long, for so many years of my life, for so many decades, really, maybe you've heard me say it, I lived from the neck up. I lived so much involved in my own mind and my own head, and I did that for a lot of reasons. I can speak specifically for myself.
[00:01:31] I will say for a lot of the work that I do with men, this seems to be very, very common with men. I won't say. It's not true for women, cuz it certainly can be true for women as well. But what I find and what I found from my specific experience was that I very often would retreat into my mind because it felt like it was safer than me being in my body and being in the experience of whatever it was that it felt like I was going through.
[00:01:55] And so I would retreat into my mind to try to figure things out. I always wanted to know like, how is this gonna work out? Let me think this through. Let me identify what my options are, what my path is, what my plan is. Honestly, even as I say that now I can feel the exhaustion to my body. Even just acknowledging that I could feel the heaviness of it.
[00:02:16] And then to keep feeding that I would read the next book and then I'd read the next book. And then I'd read the next book, and then I'd read the ne right. It was this perpetual cycle of how is it that I can just keep feeding myself more information, consuming, more information to take it in? Because I believed that if I had enough information, if I had enough knowledge, if I accumulated enough, then I'd have more of the answers.
[00:02:40] And if I had more of the answers, and that proves that, you know, staying in my mind and staying trapped in this way was paid off, what I wasn't recognizing. And what I was not paying attention to was a variety of different things. One of which was how dysregulated my nervous system was at times. I'd short circuit because that stress would just kind of reach a pinnacle moment and I couldn't think any further.
[00:03:03] I couldn't go any further. My body would experience, you know, incredible fatigue at those types of moments. I'd be more irritable, I'd be more frustrated. All just, you know, signs of a dysregulated nervous system. That was one of the things that was going on. Number two was that it was very often that through romantic partners and, and through dating, through the years, even just through friends, they always felt as if I had a wall up.
[00:03:27] They felt like I wasn't totally connected to them at any given moment because they could feel as if there was this buffer and there was, the buffer was my mind. I wasn't actually directly experiencing life through my body and allowing myself to be that open in all these different ways that I potentially could be.
[00:03:44] And so it did. I did have that big wall up because that was my wall of of protection, and this goes on for, this was through my 20, it was through my teens or through my twenties. It was into my, even, even in my thirties, despite being around a variety of really helpful personal development work and consciousness work and all sorts of things that you would think would have kind of cracked this.
[00:04:05] But what I see, and it's one of the reasons why I wanna bring this here today and why I've alluded to it and talked about it in different episodes, is that there's still so much in self-development, personal development, even in spiritual development that still is very talk heavy. It's very cognitive and it keeps us very much playing through the narratives and the stories in our minds.
[00:04:30] Listen, there's a place for that and there are ways of that being done that can be extremely helpful. But I also think that it needs to be part of a more integrated whole, a more integrated process, more integrated experience for us to be able to move through what it is that we really mean or meant to move through to, to become as healed and as whole as we possibly can be.
[00:04:50] And so for me, not only was this hitting, as you guys have heard, that stage of burnout and going through those types of processes and, and and to, to recover and, and go through that, but really it came to me where life presented it to me that if I wanted to continue to grow, if I wanted to continue to evolve, I couldn't think my way into that new way of being.
[00:05:15] It was impossible. As a matter of fact, thinking was the very obstacle. Standing in my way from me being able to grow and to build deeper connection with myself, deeper connection with others, deeper connection with what's bigger than me, what I would consider to be the divine. And that was being stunted because my mind was in the way, and it was in the way because it was now the master as opposed to the servant.
[00:05:42] It was no longer the tool that it was meant to be for us. So the topic that I wanted to bring to you guys today is the topic of embodiment. I'm gonna talk about what does it mean to actually begin to get into our bodies, and that's only one specific reference of what embodiment means, but to actually really, truly, fully integrate the experiences of what it is that we're going through, and to use embodiment practices to create extraordinary healing and transformation within our lives.
[00:06:09] I'm gonna give you one example. I'll allude to a few things, then I wanna get to our guests. One example of this is of where I used to go to my mind all the time. I was part of a graduate training that, that I was one of the leaders of, and we were going through, we were learning and helping the trainees, the students, the coaches at the time, coaches in training, learn a particular challenging process.
[00:06:29] And as they're partnered off to work with other students in the room to go through this practice, there was a pair that had gotten into an experience of the individual who was serving the client as the client. At that moment, that was very, very challenging to go through and there was a lot of energy and emotion that was attached to this particular experience, and so they called me over and I stepped into simply support them through that process and then support them through the learning of, of what was unfolding.
[00:06:55] As I walked away from that moment, I realized something was different and I realized it was something in my energy had become extremely heavy. And it felt like there was a weight that hadn't been there only 10 minutes ago to one degree. I had a training to finish, so I did compartmentalize a bit so I could get through the training, keep my focus where it needed to be on the students.
[00:07:18] However, after the training, it was actually a rare occurrence where this graduate training happened to be in my home state. It was absolutely 20 minutes from where I live. So I was able to go home that evening and I come home and I turn to my wife. I said, listen, I'm gonna be off for a couple of days.
[00:07:34] Meaning something like, feels like I picked up and I don't mean I'm sick. I feel like I picked something up and I'm not going to try to feel better this time. Which kinda looks at me curiously like, what do you mean you're not gonna try to feel better? I feel like I try to shift too quickly. I try to figure it out, and I try to move on from these types of experiences because I don't wanna feel what it is that I'm going through and I feel like I'm missing something.
[00:08:01] I feel like there's a reason why this has come back up again. And so for the next two days, it was actually a little bit longer. It was about two and a half days. I made zero attempt to shift out of what I was experiencing. I actually allowed my, my body and my whole system, my emotions, all of it, to be fully felt.
[00:08:21] And I gotta tell you, it was miserable. It was just allowing myself to be in what felt like this sadness and this grief, and this heaviness. I didn't wanna do anything. I didn't wanna get out of bed for those couple days, and it sunk me into some dark places. And yet one of the very things that I needed to face was not the particular issue that happened to be linked, and just happened to come up as a result of helping a couple of people what needed to be faced.
[00:08:54] Was actually being with that darkness, being with those emotions and allowing my body to actually go through the whole felt experience of that as opposed to shortcircuiting it by figuring it out in my mind and saying, oh, I've got the way that I can handle this. Oh, I can do this about it. Oh wait, here's the insight.
[00:09:12] I can move on now. And I didn't do those things. I just allowed myself to fully embody the experience of what I was going through. I didn't have any other practices at the time. I didn't know other ways of working with, with energy and emotions and things like that at this moment. But when I walked out of it and I, I kind of came out of it that two and a half, three days later, I knew something now was very different because it, I now was able to find and feel what was almost this joy behind the sadness, this joy that was behind the darkness, even that it felt like I had just experienced.
[00:09:51] But I never could have found that if I didn't allow my full physical embodied experience to work itself through. So there is so much importance to this and there are so many more practices and there is so much more guidance that we can receive that support us, and that's part of the reason why I have two of the, the brilliant souls and individuals I have with us today.
[00:10:17] And so we're gonna talk a little bit about embodiment. We're gonna talk about some different practices. We'll get to all those things, but I also want to just hear what's kind of present for them right now as I welcome them in. One is new to you and this is my friend, my colleague, Debra Hess. Debra, who you can consider to be a sacred midwife.
[00:10:37] I absolutely love that title, and it's that she helps birth you through what she describes as the narrow gate of love. At the young age of 20, Debra was inspired to seek the knowledge and experience of her own divinity, as well as the nature of the universe. The diverse path she's walked now culminates in this moment where others refer to having unwavering trust in Debra's love and compassion.
[00:10:59] I can affirm that and attest to that as well. They experience feeling safe as Debra shows up in her vulnerability, her honesty, and her integrity. The result from working with Debra is the return of hope and the belief and the possibility of peace, wholeness. And happiness. The training that has supported her in this foundation has helped her own return to wholeness and those trainings.
[00:11:21] All of this background, it includes years of psychotherapy, over 500 hours in yoga, teacher training, bachelor's degree in music therapy, laughter, yoga, yoga need certified, and is now coming to culmination in her ongoing training in Sky Dancing Tantra. So I cannot wait for you guys to hear and and experience Debra as part of this conversation, but we have a second walking partner who is both a friend and colleague to both of us, as well as somebody that you have met here before On This Walk.
[00:11:53] And that's Matt Hogan. Matt has an endless fascination and devotion to the path of self-mastery and living an aligned life from the lows of depression and attempted suicide to riding the highs of corporate climbing, to exiting corporate life and traveling the world. Matt's own personal journey of mastering his life through a growing connection with his own inner teacher and guidance, it has forged the foundation for what inspires and propels him.
[00:12:17] This journey that he in turn supports his clients with. Matt’s clients include prominence as well as rising entrepreneurs, top level execs, changemakers, supporting them to bring more of themselves into their work, their leadership style, and their relationships. This is accomplished through him helping them to recognize and trust their own inner guidance, just as he did to find both clarity and confidence in the decisions and plans that they make.
[00:12:40] Matt still continues every day to tap into what it is to live his most online life, and that remains his North star. And with that, Matt and Debra, thank you for coming on this walk.
[00:12:53] Matt: You’ve got that late night DJ voice is gone. This is gonna be a good time.
[00:12:58] Luke: I wanna ask you guys, just right at the, the top, obviously heard the, you know what I had to share.
[00:13:03] You've heard some of the background, uh, as well as just knowing that we were gonna be here today. And the place I wanted to start is actually just asking you both what's present for you in this moment. Debra, if we could start with you.
[00:13:15] Debra: Absolutely. Luke, I think the, the big thing that's present is the alignment to your story, the inner knowing that path in and down through the place that is overshadow with me or very painful, or having been resisted, and then going through, and we'll share later some of the practices.
[00:13:35] That's why I call it the gateway of love. It's sort of this narrow gate that she didn't quite wanna go through. And that as you are willing to leave the mind dominance. For me, that also was very present, a lot of fear, a lot of pushing was behind my mind, dominance, and I didn't know it at the time. I just thought I was creative.
[00:13:55] I was intelligent. I was a survivor. But the exhaustion, I can really feel the same place of coming to. And then the relinquishing, right? I, I use the word surrender, that deep place within me that just surrender to that way of being, doing really is the better word, and dropping into this place of being and that invited whatever's there and building the capacity to be present to whatever's there.
[00:14:24] And then each little. Reward was the joy or the love or the connection to myself or to another, and this building of this sense of self that's always been here, that I haven't taken the, the full, grounded, stable presence in the embodiment of myself.
[00:14:46] Matt: What’s present for you?
Debra: Watching myself, my mind go between, oh, what's my good response?
[00:14:51] Matt: Oh, there's Debra's good response.
Debra: Am I co, is my heart and balanced and coherent right now? And I'm like, wait, what are we talking about? That's what's present for me.
[00:15:02] Luke: Thank you for that. Thank you for the accuracy of that and the honesty of that. It is deeply appreciated. What I think just came up for me and Debra, you, you sparked this in referencing sort of your own journey with shadow and knowing you both.
[00:15:17] I'm curious for, for your perspectives, your experiences with this, but I actually think that's probably what I recognize with. Taking on an intention of being more embodied to do embodiment practices to get in the body with practices was it allowed me to face much more of, and feel much more of those darker places of that shadow, of a lot of the places that, frankly, I didn't wanna go, which is why I re retreated my mind.
[00:15:47] And I'm curious what, what that's been like for you guys, of, of how, you know, how has it been that embodiment work has allowed you to face the more challenging things that previously maybe you had locked away?
[00:16:02] Matt: Well, let's begin with the way I define embodiment. Great. Since it can be such an ambiguous woowoo term.
[00:16:09] Yeah. To me, embodiment is about the realization that I spent many, many years trying to think my way into a good life. Meaning if I just have this next title, if I just have that next relationship, if I just have that next trip. That next spreadsheet complete, that next efficiency articulated and defined.
[00:16:31] I'll be good, I'll arrive. What embodiment for me became was the realization that all I've ever been seeking is to feel a certain way. And that what I desired most was to feel a certain way in my life, but I always imposed and projected that desire for a feeling unto the world around me. And then if the feedback loop of the world showed me something different, I would still be confused saying The world was doing something wrong.
[00:16:59] Yeah. And so then I would go right back and the double down, why would I need to rethink? I wasn't thinking right. But all along I just wanted to feel okay. I wanted to feel at peace. I wanted to feel loved. I wanna feel loving. I wanna feel alive. And so embodiment for me has been moving out of those misunderstandings.
[00:17:21] Of what I walked with that was going to create what you might call a good life, a whole life, fulfilling life, and really start to move in what actually cultivates the feeling of that life? Because again, it's always been a feeling I've been seeking. And so while it's great that, you know, I want to have a business, it's great that I want to have a good relationship and everything, what's the feeling ultimately that I wanna experience as I navigate life?
[00:17:49] And I remember very clearly I'd been working with a business coach for about a year. She really helped me develop some skill sets and things like that around cultivating a business and things like that after I'd left corporate. But I knew when she, it came time for her to say we were gonna, we could continue on.
[00:18:08] A lot of the conversation had been talk based, a lot of it had been like strategy tactic, how do you engage, how do you send the right emails? All those things. And it was useful. And I knew that I had reached a wall because no matter how much my skills grew, I still felt uncomfortable in my own skin. Yeah, I still found myself getting spun out by an email I didn't know how to respond to.
[00:18:34] I still found myself consistently in this hypervigilant state of seeking. The next thing to protect myself from consistently like rest was, what do you mean I'm gonna rest? I'm gonna rest when I die because I don't know how to rest. That was a slogan, but it was really just based in my own fear and discomfort, and I knew that that was a crossroad moment for me to actually start looking at what it meant to follow this feeling, this something's not right here, and continuing to chase these skills and chase these ideas.
[00:19:06] Something ain't right. And that actually is what took me first into my first experiences with plant medicine, and my very first experience with that opened me to a world of something I'd never experienced. And I wanna make it very clear that it's not about the plant medicine itself. It was a tool that helped me see what I had been ignoring, because one of the first things I realized is I had been carrying so much fucking fear with me, like just in my body, that as I shed some of that through my gut, where I was holding a lot of my tension, a lot of my pain and my hurt, and where I would like really clinch, I had a big release from that.
[00:19:48] And then I had a moment of just this clarity and this ease and this feeling of what I called love from my entire life, never recalled feeling. And I started to actually have a moment where I realized what I've been deeply searching for all along. And that started the last really four year journey where I really dove deep into what feelings have I been ignoring.
[00:20:14] What have I been suppressing in myself? What's behind my need to control the moment? What's behind my inability to relax and rest? What's behind my challenge for intimacy with a partner or is very real for me, and it has taken me through many modalities and many different experiences to find the place in me that goes, you know what, I'm good.
[00:20:43] Mm-hmm. And life is good.
[00:20:52] Luke: Life is good, and at the same time, how long have we spent chasing the image of the good life? Meaning we have these images of what life is supposed to be, what is supposed to bring us happiness and contentment and fulfillment. Yet all too often I hear sentiments just like the one that matches shared. In fact, you've heard me say it.
[00:21:13] I checked the boxes and I didn't find myself feeling the way that I thought I would were should at that point in my life. I know for a while I didn't pay attention to what Matt just said, that something's not right here. It arises more as a feeling than a thought. Maybe that feeling even does turn into a whisper.
[00:21:35] You might hear it as, is this really what you want? Is this actually going to make you happy? Isn't there something more, or something better than this? For me, I started hearing whispers that the path that I was on was no longer by path, and yet I stuffed that down. I ignored it despite my body and my heart constantly trying to get my attention.
[00:21:58] I wasn't slowing down long enough to truly check in, to allow the feelings to rise, to face them, to engage with them, to actually see what it is that they held. And again, as Matt shared on his own path, I began asking myself, what have I been ignoring? What is it that I am truly feeling? And then let's explore it.
[00:22:21] What's behind those feelings? Each of them? What's behind the sadness? What's behind the grief? What's behind the anger? What's behind the dissatisfaction? What's even behind the resentment? Now, to be clear, these questions, I'm not asking why. Why this sadness is a different question than what's behind it.
[00:22:43] Why seeks a reason. Something that we can point to, and often something we feel like we can blame or we can excuse. Whereas when we ask what's behind, what's behind is asking for what needs to be seen and heard. What is it that needs to step forward? What's behind or asked another way, what's underneath?
[00:23:04] That's where we begin to find the parts of ourselves that we have all too often repressed and even disowned. That's where we find the energetic thoughts that have actually been present in our subconscious, in our shadow, we find the parts of us that feel unlovable, the parts that feel unworthy, the parts that feel not good enough, and the parts that feel so hopelessly alone.
[00:23:28] We wanna bring these parts back into our awareness to feel them to hear them. So that we can bring them back into relationship with the parts of us that do feel whole, the parts that feel grateful and fortunate. The parts of us that know and feel love and peace, the parts of us that are confident and know are value.
[00:23:49] When I bring these parts together, I find myself back at the center of all of my parts. It's a centered awareness and a presence that is actually the core of who it is that I am. I then have greater access to feeling and to source from where I want to live, life from, meaning to connect, to love, to peace, to fulfillment and joy, and then live my life from that energy instead of when I am living from my shadow, living to find these feelings outside of myself when I'm connected to those feelings of love, peace, fulfillment, joy, wholeness within myself.
[00:24:26] I also find it vastly easier to face the uncomfortable places and parts within me. I can face sorrow with love. I can face anger with peace. I can even face grief with joy. And I know this because of how different I literally feel in my body. The body doesn't lie. It's always telling us exactly what's really going on for ourselves.
[00:24:52] It's through our minds that we can ignore it and lie to ourselves. So let's turn back to our conversation, this journey of embodiment, and let's keep strengthening our relationship with our inner world and most definitely our hearts and bodies.
[00:25:15] Debra: Thank you, Matt, for, you know, dropping down into the very heart of you and your affect changes, your voice changes, your heart opens your emotions flow. It's just the beauty of embodiment. And what waits for us here. Yeah. I'm afraid of what waits for us there, but I'm okay. I'm good enough is the essence of how I'm made.
[00:25:42] There's nothing I need to do. It already is. And to reveal those buffers that have kept me from embracing that I just moved through this week. After many years, I've embodied my practices, the deepest place of self-loathing that was within me, and it rocked my world. It rocked my heart, it rocked my emotions.
[00:26:07] But I did kind of like you did. I said, no, I'm here. I'm here with this and I'm here to let it. Show me as a messenger. I've done repression of these areas, but it represses my joy. It represses all. You don't selectively repress individual emotions. If you're putting a lid on it, you're putting a lid on this viable place in which we sense life, which we experience life.
[00:26:35] If you even take a moment to think, what would it be like without emotions? There are some individuals that are incarnated that don't have that capacity in their life. I would never want to not feel my emotions, and yet it's what I was choosing to do. And when I embrace that self-loathing to get to the I'm okay.
[00:26:56] I could utilize my mind at that point. As a tool. I see its origin, its original wound, and that how and why I'm choosing to carry it and how I can surrender and lay it down.
[00:27:08] Luke: Something about in what both of you have brought up, what, what I've known in my own experience is that if we approach embodiment work, and Matt, you, you gave a very nice frame of reference, very, uh, frame of understanding of, as opposed to looking for so much of what we do outside of ourselves, but instead to actually connect it to what is the experience, the feeling that's actually going on inside of me or that I'm looking for inside of me.
[00:27:41] And to be in relation with that, to be in relation to, with our, our felt experience of what's unfolding. And I think what, what I have found is that the deeper I get into some of those processes and we can talk about what, what we're actually referring to in a little bit. My body never lies, right?
[00:28:02] Our bodies are this unbelievable accountability system. I was gonna call them a lie detector, but they're, they're this incredible accountability system and it's a truth detector because it helps us know at any given moment what's actually the real truth that we are connecting to in our felt experience.
[00:28:25] So let me just give a simple example of this. This is not something that I was aware enough of previously because it, it needed to be felt for me to understand this. But if I were to say, if I had gone through an exchange with somebody and, and I felt like they had wronged me, if I felt like I'd been slighted in some way, I could tell you that yes, I have forgiven them.
[00:28:46] I could look at them and say, yes, I forgive you, but it's only my body that's actually gonna know whether or not I actually have. Because my body is going to tell me, is that real? Like, do you actually genuinely feel that forgiveness? Do you feel that release? And the more that I've gotten in tune and attuned with my body through all these different practices and work and everything else, it lets me know where my body is trying to educate me even further and restore that truth that is actually there.
[00:29:19] That for so long I've turned away from. And it can be those things that have felt like it's disconnected me. It can be those things that feel like they've been unworthy. It can feel those things that have been hurts and pains that have just gotten quite literally stuck within our energetic field. But you need to be able to access those hurts and those pains again, to be able to release them, to be able to unweave them, unwind them.
[00:29:41] And that is through our physical presence and the energy that's connected to it. I know that's been, that's been very, very true for me. And it, it's consistently led me back to this is what I'm, you know, it's Luke, this is what I'm trying to get your attention on. Come here, come, come and take a look at this.
[00:29:58] Right. And then that's where the work begins. I'm curious for, you know, for you both, and I can, I can tee this up in different ways, but I'm curious for you both, when you think of embodiment work, what has been some of those practices, some of that work that has been most important to you? Because this, this, I find this is completely different for everybody.
[00:30:21] It is really unique to who we are. So I'm curious for you both, what has been some of the work that you have found really, really aligns or resonates with you?
[00:30:33] Debra: I’ve got two, two categories I'd like to reference that. Uh, one, the practices of Yoga Nedra, which is a fundamental. Inward attention to all the kos of your being in a 25, 30 minute period, from the gross physical body into the more sensitive breath body, into the emotional body, looking at cognitions, limiting beliefs and the essence of your oneness.
[00:31:00] And then a practice like that, opening your psyche and your mind moving into the parasympathetic nervous system. So deregulating your central nervous system from patterns, mostly from trauma patterns, allows you really to lay down new neural pathways and the new network that can experience, right not from the head, but experience yourself as these things from a neutral place.
[00:31:29] And so this builds a new inquiry into self. It's, it's a very, very beautiful practice. It's at the hallmark of how I work one-on-one with people and how I heal myself. The other thing that really came through as you were sharing and asking about that is I'm feeling this sense of intimacy and communion.
[00:31:47] When Matt just shared and opened up so deeply, I felt embodiment allows me to feel safe right there with Matt to feel like I can open up and be that way. Right and intimacy and communing for me. Right now, my big teacher is in my sexuality with my partner, and I feel like in this place, Here is the nakedness of me, right.
[00:32:11] In fullness. And anything that is hidden is willing to be seen and can be touched. And so true intimacy, not necessarily the acts of sexual pleasure, although they certainly open us to the embodiment of ourselves, but the safety and the stability and the vulnerability. These seem to be really the hallmarks for me where I'm curious where I'm diving in.
[00:32:37] Luke: Hmm. There's something in there. And, and then Matt, I would like to, to go to you in terms of practices, but also to see if you have something that you just wanna share from this perspective, but where you just described of, you know, being in that nakedness, the openness, as well as the safety, as well as the vulnerability within that intimacy.
[00:32:57] It's really interesting how much embodiment connects us to those states. And helps us look at right where, where is it that we are open? Where is it that we are closed? Where is it that we feel safe? Where is it that we do not feel safe? Where is it that we feel vulnerable in a way that we need to hold back or vulnerable in a way of, no, we actually wanna express from this place.
[00:33:19] And embodiment really helps us begin to feel into that, into those states, which is pretty interesting. Matt, for you, just curious in terms of either the practices that you have found to be most supportive of you from embodiment work or just if there's something based on anything that Debra has shared or I've shared that brings something up that you wanna express.
[00:33:41] Matt: The inner guidance that kept telling me there's gotta be something more, there's gotta be something different. Something that kept calling me that said it can be different, it can be easier, it doesn't have to be this hard, has really been, you know, the, the ultimate pull through or through line for me. I don't know where this is taking me.
[00:34:01] I don't know exactly what's gonna happen, but I'm finding, I'm following what tells me there's gotta be something better for me here. Mm-hmm. It doesn't have to be so damn hard, so damn heavy, so overwhelming and oftentimes so numb. Mm-hmm. Cause there's plenty of times where I didn't, I couldn't feel anything so much of that though, was this consistent, I'll use the words of a client of mine, maybe I'm using right.
[00:34:22] Chicken and egg, where like I would see something that could potentially support me and then I'd have to lean in enough to see what's there, but also try to find the safety in it too that would allow me to open to it. And you know, some of those first steps for me were just like the earliest steps were being willing to express emotion and be seen in my emotion and calls with like mentors and coaches that I've worked with.
[00:34:50] And to me even that as a starting point of embodiment, as just being able to be seen and witnessed in our emotion and our wrongness. Because you're embodying really what's real for you, rather than trying to put a mask on. Going further into it, you know, this is less of a practice and more of a modality, is I wanted to go deeper into it because I wanted to rediscover what it was to be intimate with my body, to care about my body, because my body experienced a lot of violence in this lifetime and I was shut off from it in a lot of ways for so long.
[00:35:23] And one of those earlier modalities for me was something called roughing. Mm-hmm. And what it did was offer me a gentle support that actually started to help calm and regulate my nervous system. So then that feeling of safety and ease could come through just a little bit. And then I kept up with the practice of letting myself feel my emotions, letting myself feel what was coming up in a safe container, be it a home by myself.
[00:35:54] Get on a call with a mentor or friend I trust. So there's this exchange of being seen in the world and witnessed by others and be as I am. But there's also this intrinsic part of, you know, some of these modalities helped me calm my nervous system. Like for me, like yoga was really hard because my nervous system was so wrapped up that I would often just push my body too hard.
[00:36:16] And so I was still hurting myself. And so some of these other modalities, like raw thing started to help me somatic experiencing where I was actually with someone. And they really just helped me slow down a little bit, just little by little starting to recognize what's really present for me, what's really there.
[00:36:33] And that has led into just deeper work and deeper meditation type practices with even Debra here who has helped me many, many times and even many of the things we've done Luke, but all of it has been a stair step towards what allows me to feel safe enough to take this next step towards feeling okay.
[00:36:52] Feeling good, feeling like I'm living more as myself and more whole rather than fragmented. And one thing I do want to acknowledge in that same vein is I know for me that there was this fear that if I started feeling things that would become all consumed. The problem was for me, as I was breached to a point where my body just didn't carry anymore, my heart was like, no, we're not gonna live like this anymore.
[00:37:18] And so no matter how much my mind would argue, like, you can't cry in front of that person, you can't be angry over here. My body's like, no, no, we're not holding this shit anymore. And so I would have emotions come up and some of the most not ideal times. Now, to me, embodiment is so much about being able to be real with where we're at, at the same time.
[00:37:40] A big piece of this is restoring the balance that our systems naturally have, but have then lost their way because of all the holding. All the repressing. All the suppressing. And so in that vein, something that's been really useful for me to create safety and create my willingness to move forward and trust this path is having time devoted like a ritual, a container in my morning that I said this time is for me to feel everything that I need to feel and literally put it all on the table and literally have this demarcation point into this container and outta this container.
[00:38:13] And what I found by at least giving myself that time, I didn't have things leaking all over the place in my relationships, my anger, my sadness, leaking all over the place cuz there was time devoted to the deeper stuff that was calling me and that I was ready for.
[00:38:26] Luke: Okay. So many things I could go off of that you just brought up.
[00:38:30] If I go just using one thing that you just brought up just now was that ritual of creating that type of container, creating that type of time I think is beautiful. And something I wanted to make clear of what you brought up is that when you enter into a time, if you're gonna have 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes in the morning, whatever it's gonna be is to have that demarcation, meaning to have a ritual that is the beginning of the process so that you are opening into that.
[00:38:56] And then when you are completing having a ritual that demarcates the completion of that so that the container gets held. And because of why that stuck out to me so much, aside from being a beautiful practice, was the way that you framed it, which is so that that energy that's still being worked on, that energy that might still be raw that has come up, doesn't keep leaking out.
[00:39:20] Into all of these other areas in my relationships and communication and everything else. And when we create that container that has the opening, that has the closing and has a ritual to it, it helps us know where to bring that energy and where to bring and, and this space to get into to be able to work on that.
[00:39:36] And so it can be incredibly, incredibly helpful. I wanted to comment on, on even how circling fits into this and then Matt, I wanted to also ask you to talk about this evolution of practices as it were in just a moment. Because you mentioned something about circling, which I also, cause it was actually something I'd written down as an embodiment practice for me as well.
[00:39:54] And most people wouldn't maybe associate that because circling feels like it might be a little bit more talkative and therefore it might be more cognitive. But one of the things that became very true for me in having others hold space for me and then in facilitating and going through the experience is I used to talk through and talk over my emotions.
[00:40:17] I wouldn't. Right? It was my way of, Ooh, there's something raw there. Ooh, there's something that that doesn't, I'm just gonna keep talking. I'm not gonna feel that. And hopefully, you know, people didn't take too much notice, but when you're in a circle, that's exactly what everybody is almost like, I don't wanna say hoping for, but that's the space they wanna hold.
[00:40:36] Meaning it's wait, wait, wait, wait. You can keep going in a minute. Allow yourself just a moment to feel what just came up. I noticed that as you were sharing, I could, you know, I could feel you getting choked up as I got choked up with what you were saying. Just give yourself a moment. And the more that that space got created, the more that it allowed me to actually be in my body and to be present to fully experience what was coming up.
[00:41:04] And that allowed me to bring more and more parts of me. Into my experience so that I can be more fully present and more fully experience whatever it was that I was going through in my life or in that particular moment in time. So circling is, it's interesting. It's, it's been a practice that's been very important to, uh, to my own process of embodiment.
[00:41:23] Matt, the one thing I just wanted to have you further comment on and then, uh, any of your perspective on this as well, Debra, because of, of the way that you've worked with clients is I know from your journey the evolution of practices that you, you have gone through. And what I mean by that is that you have recognized when Rolfing, for instance, was in service of you and how committed you were to that for that period of time.
[00:41:50] And then you recognized, okay, that served what it needed to serve, and then you would kind of explore and find what was the next practice or two that seemed to serve where you were. And then when that felt like completion, you would continue to evolve. And I'm just wondering if you could speak a little bit further to kind of what that process has been like for you because it's, it has been this ever deepening journey that you've been committed to.
[00:42:17] Matt: Some people devote years to a coup two or three main things of wisdom, of knowledge. I have more buffet style. I'm like, ah, there's so many options. But for real though, like it, when we were writing the bios for the group that were running, I laughed because as I was writing mine, I'm like, I read yours and it was like, and my gears and mindfulness and I, you didn't put ears in whatever.
[00:42:43] You're like mindfulness. I was like, and my mind, I'm like, shit. I just kept saying, this next thing feels like it's the next thing to support this feeling that I'm really called towards. And so I'm gonna just say yes to that until it's not a yes anymore. And so I said yes to Rolfing for like three or four months and was a big deal for me.
[00:43:03] It really opened me up and brought me a lot more peace than ease. And then that opened up the next door. I was, and like my first call with Debra. And so like, it's just, it's been sequential. And what I mean by sequential, it has been threaded together by one thing, a deep desire to follow this knowing that my life could be different, more useful, more balanced, and more enjoyable than what it had been.
[00:43:29] And there was a part of me that was still consistently looking at, okay, the money, more money can make me feel okay, the next job can make me feel okay, the next client. And there's some relevancy to that. But there was the deeper part of me that knew that no amount of money, no amount of clients, No amount of trips, no amount of partners, no matter of anything was gonna ever make me feel the feeling that I was really after.
[00:43:53] And so I really had to like walk both at the same time, the inner and outer journey of it all. And so I would really find what is that next right step that feels to support the feeling I feel that seems like I'm after right now. Yeah. Because I can sit here and use the language peace and ease and love and all those things, but really they're just concepts unless you feel them.
[00:44:20] And so I don't want to get people caught up in the concept of these emotions. Yeah. But what is it that you know as you're listening, what is that deeper feeling you're after? Like what is the sensation of it? What is the experience of it? When you can connect to that and then connect to what potentially is the space, the place, the thing that might support that.
[00:44:47] It's really important to listen to that cuz no one can truly tell you that. Like even in our work and walk together, Luke, you've pointed out a couple things here and there, but ultimately it always had to come back to what do I know so far? What am I trying to find feeling wise? And what might be that next step, that next practice, that next modality that serves it.
[00:45:12] And then, and this can be one of the challenging parts is when you reach and it has been for me is when I reach to the end of the usefulness of one being willing to let it go and trust that I will find the next thing that supports me. Yeah.
[00:45:29] Luke: The one thing I wanted to, to further mention there and then I've got a question, Debra, for you to, to, to go off of that is that when we are connecting to that feeling that we are trying to bring more, bring about more often as it were.
[00:45:46] What we seek in the way of support is just that it's a tool that helps us learn how to cultivate it, because that's what helps us recognize that, you know, I've said this to clients so many times, you can't want something unless it has already existed within you because otherwise, how would you know you wanted it?
[00:46:05] You'd have no frame of reference, you'd have no experience for it. So somehow, somewhere you've already experienced this and you're trying to remember your way back. And so these tools are mechanisms of support that help you remember your way back to that which already exists within you. And now it's how do I cultivate that with these tools and with these other tools to, to be able to support me in recognizing that that actually is generated from within.
[00:46:31] And I think that's where, where Debra, something I wanted to have you comment on. It's something that Matt said, but I know how kind of true this has been for you is that our bodies give us such extraordinary guidance as to what it is that they need, what it is that they're seeking. And so as Matt, you had described it as feeling into kind of where the body wanted to go next.
[00:46:56] What was it calling you towards? And Debra, I know you've done this for yourself. You, you know, you might describe it as feeling that full body yes. At any given moment. And I also know that you guide others on this. It's almost like we're waking ourselves up, our physical presence and our body's intelligence in such a way as to become part of our guidance system.
[00:47:18] And I was wondering if you could speak to your experience, either personally or in service of as to how we, you know, we really start to cultivate that.
[00:47:27] Debra: I think one thing that we've laid out very clearly is willingness. And how the path of shadow and our walk with our own individual life and that own inner craving creates willingness and then acceptance as to what is and that full place of inner forgiveness.
[00:47:48] And now we're starting to talk about the element of love. And for me, nothing happened outside of the container of love. So that's actually why I shared that piece about the self-loathing had to come into a, a balance of self-love for me, the skill of the deep dive within the. Cultivating the practice. I hold space so people can go in, feel safe.
[00:48:13] This is very root energy center stable, but right. Intertwined with Root Energy Center is your creativity and your sexuality, and they are both intimately related. And so if we stay with creativity as this wellspring that comes from within us, we're actually accessing wisdom and knowing very different than our intellect.
[00:48:37] And so there's an infinite amount of possibilities within us. And once you come in and realize there's resources, there's an inner resource designed by your divinity to help you access and co-create these solutions that are far beyond what your mind could come up with. Your mind has knowledge, it has experience, it has buffers.
[00:49:03] Your intuitiveness, your wisdom doesn't feel those risks, and so it presents them as you take that dive in, knowing there's mystery, knowing there's unknown, and being comfortable with the unknown as this place of possibility. So you get fear, but you get excitement. And so the more you come in and the more you're more neutral, but knowing and you, you only have to come in once and be like, wow, I just created that from within me in co-creation with love and whatever I have access to that seems to be greater than me.
[00:49:43] And so I feel when you talked about evolution or you talked about us moving into higher states of consciousness, I think there is this amazing wellspring that's already flowing and just waiting for our consciousness to be able to really absorb it. To relate to it and to begin to co-create with it.
[00:50:17] Luke: I wanna share a quick piece that I received from one of my dearest teachers, Karissa Schumacher. In one of her very recent transmissions, she shared that it's not just the fear of the unknown, it's the fear of being disappointed. Consider that for a second. It's not the fear of the unknown per se, it's the fear of being disappointed if we're facing something unknown, uncertain, something that felt, that does feel daunting to us even.
[00:50:46] But if you knew the satisfaction, the joy, the fulfillment that were on the other side of it, how would your attitude change? How would your energy shift? And how much more willing would you be to face the unknown? We don't get that certainty, but sit with that understanding for a moment. Again, it's not the unknown per se, but it's the fear of being disappointed if you go through it.
[00:51:12] For me, this hit me hard, hit me in my gut because if I had to come to grips with, and honestly, I still am by the way, coming to grips with this, that it really isn't simply the not knowing. It's not knowing what I'm getting into, not knowing what I'm gonna do. It's not necessarily those things. It's that if I do go through it all, if I put in the effort, if I put in the energy, if I give myself to whatever it is that is in front of me, that I don't even know where it is and I'm going yet, but I decide I'm gonna go through it all, I can be disappointed that it may not work out the way that I begin to hope, because that disappointment is tied to my expectations, to my attachments, to the worry that I might lose, or how it is that my needs might go unmet.
[00:52:00] It's tied to so much except the present moment. And what's being presented to you? Every unknown, while it seems dark and empty is filled with an infinite number of possibilities. Yet we tend to focus on the possible outcomes that don't align to what we expect or want. And we never look at all the ones that can will and might even far exceed our wildest dreams.
[00:52:27] We look for the loss, the struggle. I've got a situation like this going on right now for me, so what am I doing about it? I'm recognizing that what is being brought to me is an opportunity. It's a great possibility, and I'm being asked to co-create with what's here. I'm being asked to enter the arena to engage with it, and at the end of this life, I know that I am much more likely to regret the chances I didn't take as opposed to the ones that I did.
[00:52:57] I'm much more likely to regret not pouring myself into a moment of co-creation than playing it safe. I'm not saying to throw caution to the wind. Listen, do what you need to do for reasonable due diligence and process what you need to, but the magic at some point. That magic requires a leap of faith for us to suspend our disbelief.
[00:53:20] I'm navigating that process right now, and as I'm doing so, I'm taking space. I'm entering into stillness. I'm being with what's rising and what it is that needs to be seen and felt inside of my body. I'm clearing the way as much as I can for what's being presented to me, what's being asked of me, and what can be co-created.
[00:53:42] I know whatever I choose is the best path because it's the one that I believe my soul intends. The clearer I can make myself, the clearer I can hear the next best step, the path, the whispers of my soul and my soul's needs, and yet, if it doesn't work out, I know I will have entered into this with my heart and soul in that I'll receive whatever it is that I'm meant to learn from this.
[00:54:05] However it is that I've been meant to grow and whatever it is that I am meant to face, any disappointment I then feel I know is gonna be temporary. But knowing that I entered with my heart and my soul and as clear of a mind as I could connect to at this time, that knowing and feeling will last the rest of my days, I'm not gonna find any disappointment there.
[00:54:35] It's interesting because what in the way that you described that you know of tapping into that inner resource and really recognizing how each and every single one of us is uniquely designed? I've referenced it a few times. I did a show several episodes ago on human design with Nik McRae and how much that helped me understand certain things that were unique.
[00:54:57] About the way that I relate to the world and the way that I receive consciousness and wisdom and, and, and those types of insights and intuition. And then how does that become a felt experience for me? And the more that I've tuned into that, the more that I've been able to trust it, the more that, and then of course the more that I trust it, the more I recognize, wow, that's really accurate.
[00:55:17] It really kind of pans out that way. And we each have to explore because we're each unique. And that's why, you know, this is such a, we're kind of talking about this as a kind of an overview of the work of embodiment, but there's so many different practices that are out there because each of us are tuned differently.
[00:55:38] Each of us are designed differently. And so we've gotta figure out, okay, what is our mechanism, what's our syntax? To be able to open up into, you know, into what we can receive. But just to give people some specifics when we talk about embodiment work, we could be talking about something, for instance, that Matt brought up.
[00:55:53] Which is forms of body work, quite literal body work that is part of our healing process that helps us connect more to what our felt experience is. It begins to make us more aware of what's actually going on in our body and working through that breath work. Can be another part of this because breathwork moves a tremendous amount of energy and opens us up and, and helps us to become more aware of all the different energy, including the energy that's pretty stuck and stagnant inside of our bodies, as well as we could use breathwork to create all sorts of different states and shifts inside of our field, inside of our energy body.
[00:56:27] At any given time. We talk about certainly movement. Any type of movement is, is part of that. And I would say mindful movement or conscious movement where you are focused on the movements. That's why in if you are somebody that relates to something like yoga, where it's more of almost a mindful and meditative practice, not simply an exercise, you will connect to your body in a very, very different way than just as something, honestly, Matt, I related to is pushing myself way often too far in yoga because I was approaching it in a very different context and for very different reason, still trying to perform.
[00:57:01] Still trying to perform, still trying to get the best exercise in, right? There's all sorts of ego that was wrapped up in that for me anyway. This other one though, which has become something I've been more exposed to in maybe the last 12, 18 months, is the importance of sound inside of our embodiment work.
[00:57:17] And I'd actually love for, for either of you or both of you to comment on that because the more that I have recognized different feelings within my body, sensations within my body, that could be a pain. It could be tension, it could be whatever. To release. It is not just simply like muscular or movement based at times.
[00:57:37] It quite literally needs a sound put to it to be able to release it. That's what actually creates almost like the vibration as it were to be able to release it because that's one that maybe not everybody would talk about very often. I'm just kinda curious how that's played out for, for either or both of you in terms of sound playing a role.
[00:57:52] Matt: When I was speaking, I spoke more about the journey of threading from one practice to the next as you evolve, rather than actually going much into practices. Right? Cause the thread is important and sounding has been one that's intoning has been really meaningful for me just from a standpoint of if we wanna get to the biology of it, the vagus nerve in our body, that's the biggest nerve we have, impacts the operation of our nervous system.
[00:58:17] And so toning, various humming and sounding and focused on different parts of my body has made a big difference in calming my nervous system, releasing frustration, balancing me, my, myself, out. So sound has been really useful for me and I've had sometimes where it's anything from a light sound to a really loud sound or a yell even.
[00:58:38] Yep. And it's really depending on the amount of pressure or energy cuz that's there in that place, in that space and in that moment. Yeah.
[00:58:48] Luke: Debra, how about for you as a music therapist?
[00:58:49] Debra: We explored a lot of this from the psychology, but also the physiology. So I love drumming and large groups of drumming, individualized drumming, but really that's just the heartbeat it takes no, no essence of understanding music.
[00:59:06] It just goes right to the gut where we do often hold and carry a lot of our vibrational tensions. I also work with crystal balls, so sound bath. So if you ever see anything that's advertising for a sound bath or sound healing, In that modality. I use a variety of bowls, Tibetan or crystal, but also the introduction of other wind chimes.
[00:59:28] You know, the, the clients are just laying there in a meditative, relaxed place and it's, it's about opening up to your senses, right? And I'm glad we're actually here because our five senses really put us in our animal body, but also put us into creation. And we really, again, feel that we are part of creation.
[00:59:46] So these practices, you know, the drumming is the grounding your feet, your earth body, your bones sounding like you're saying with vocals and deep breathing. So glad you mentioned that. You know, it's a practice of mine, um, every day. Part of my personal ritual, again, to use the vagus nerve, the regulating, but also just to use that next subtle layer for the mind to kind of be yoked.
[01:00:08] I mean, yoga means to yolk bring your mind into your body, and the more you can just kind of thread that as part of it. Now those practices are extremely. Extremely rewarding and being time on the land. I have to say, yes. Gaia in herself is our teacher, is our mother, is our balancer. She is the great balancer.
[01:00:28] So time on the land.
[01:00:29] Luke: It does connect us to a deeper rhythm. I also wanted to comment on having been through not only sound baths with, with crystals and with bowls, but also with gongs. Mm-hmm. And to feel the vibration go through you is a really, it's an unbelievable experience. You feel like you're being cleansed in a completely different way.
[01:00:47] It's a hard, it's hard to describe. It's a bath. It's a bath. It really is hard to describe, really amazing experience if you get that chance, as you say, being out on Gaia, out in, you know, in, in with Mother Nature, that grounding effect is also part of us actually connecting, just like we're connecting to the body of the earth.
[01:01:05] We're connecting to our bodies in that process with that grounding. And then just one of the, there's many others we can go into, but there was one other thing that we've, we've mentioned a couple of times, I certainly have used that phrase of our felt sense. And the more that we get into our bodies through any of these numbers of practices and support tools that help us do that, when we're experiencing life, we start to get a felt sense of what this experience is offering.
[01:01:33] We get a felt sense of how we wanna relate to what it is that's unfolding, and the more that we allow ourselves to not just simply think about life, but to tap into a felt sense. The way I've heard it described, certainly the way I describe it, is it feels like we're having a direct experience or more directly touching life as opposed to going through the filter of the mind.
[01:01:57] Hmm. So before, when I said that, people didn't always feel connected to me cuz there was a wall there. Hmm. That wall was my mind because I needed to literally pass things through a filter and through a story for me to receive it as opposed to leaving that as offline as I can be, which some days I'm less successful than others at.
[01:02:16] And to just receive the felt experience of what this moment is, of what this conversation is, of what this connection is. Mm-hmm. And to be with the way that that actually feels, the more that we practice this. But again, I, I'll just speak for my own experience. The more I've practiced this of actually asking myself like, what's my fault experience right now?
[01:02:37] What's my fault? Sense of things. It feels like I am more fully experiencing life. It helps me be more present. And with both of those, I feel more fulfilled. Cause I feel like my, I'm more present than I get more from the experiences that I happen to be in. Hmm. And so, embodiment has helped with healing.
[01:02:58] It's helped with wisdom, it's helped with guidance, it's helped with connection. It's helped me with feeling more of life, feeling more of my experiences, which bring greater happiness, which bring greater joy, greater fulfillment, all the things, right? Mm-hmm. That's, you know, why I was moved to want to have this conversation with you both, to be able to share this with the on this walk audience.
[01:03:19] And I guess maybe as we've gone on this walk, as we have spent this time together, I'm gonna ask you the same question I began with what's present for you in this moment?
[01:03:32] Matt: For me, I continue to see this visual. It's as if I imagine a time or a horizontal timeline, and you're seeing like, here's an option sounding, here's an option, bagel toning, here's an option, yoga, here's an optioning.
[01:03:48] Like there's all these things. In our world that can support us. But the thing isn't the thing. Yeah. And it's consistently being reminded that it's the deeper feeling that I'm after. And so I say that just to be mindful, that we can sometimes get overly attached to the activity and miss the point completely.
[01:04:13] And then it keeps us in a, a rigid, fearful box. Let me say it in my own experience, I, it's kept me in a rigid, fearful box going, oh my God, if I don't have this sounding class, things are gonna be a problem. And like that attachment and that distrust to find okayness within myself is really important because we may need to find those moments where this one activity doesn't work anymore.
[01:04:44] This next one might serve us more, but it's also continuing to slowly. Based on our own unique, where we're at, find our okayness in the moment, regardless of what activity is or isn't available, the activities are there to support us, to remind us, to help us remember what is intrinsic to our very existence.
[01:05:06] They are not meant to be the thing that we just attached to. And I've learned that one again as someone that likes the buffet, you know? I know. I'm like, kinda just have it all. I mean, yeah,
[01:05:18] Debra: I can, I can add to that in my own journey, taking those modalities and coming inside. But the thing that gave me the greatest amount of knowing that my needs were being met was that I was the regulator of my system.
[01:05:35] Hmm. I'm the regulator of my emotions. I am the regulator of my pleasure. I am the regulator of my passions. And yes, those, but going from outside to inside is the nugget. Yeah.
[01:05:49] Luke: Beautiful. I want to thank both of you for being here, for your experience, for your wisdom, for your energy, for your beauty, all the wonderful things that you've brought here.
[01:06:01] Everybody that's tuning in, do me a favor, just check out your show notes cuz that way you can see how to get in touch with Debra. With Matt. So I do encourage you guys to do that. To check them out, to see what they're up to. Cause they're up to some pretty cool things. Debra and Matt, I wanna thank you so much for being here and going on this walk with us.
[01:06:16] Debra: Thank you for walking with us, Luke, and everyone that you do walk with. Mm-hmm. Thank you, Matt, an honor.
[01:06:22] Matt: Thank you. Thank you both. I just love you two. Yeah.
[01:06:26] Luke: Thank you guys so much. Be well. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off, please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode.
[01:06:39] Also, please rate and review us. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation. To keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts, join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com, and click on Community in the upper right hand corner.
[01:06:59] It's free to join until we go on this walk again, I’m Luke Iorio. Be well.