041 - Breaking the Chains of Suffering: Exploring the Vital Link Between Freedom and Healing

Are you afraid of suffering? What if we told you that suffering is not a curse, but a true gift? 

This week on On This Walk, my walking partner is Boaz Feldman. We dive deep into the theme of suffering and the freedom that comes from its alleviation. We explore the power of group work and social interaction in facilitating healing and growth, as well as the importance of somatic expression and co-regulation. We also discuss the societal and cultural factors that impact individual experiences of suffering and the role of group processes in addressing these patterns. 

Get ready for an enlightening conversation filled with insights and much more!

In This Episode

• (08:16) - Boaz’s motivation to alleviate suffering and promote liberation

• (12:53) - The healing power of social engagement and interaction 

• (18:07) - The Social Baseline Theory

• (31:29) - How connecting to a wider system can lead to healing 

• (34:02) -The impact of community and tribal leaders on mental health and wellbeing.

• (36:50) - The effectiveness of groups in facilitating healing and recovery from trauma.

• (45:12) -The principle of encouraging embodied action in group therapy

• (57:28) -The importance of relationships for happiness, well-being, and longevity

• (01:00:01) -The lazy person's way to happiness

• (01:00:18) -Why shame and social exclusion are like a physiological death.

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Notable Quotes

• Luke @ 13min 49sec

  “The more that we cannot only deepen the way in which we use our presence, things like deep listening and things like that with others, that's certainly true in the way that it changes. But when we get that present, we become more present to what our experience is in relation to others. And that usually is going to surface things of helping people recognize some of maybe what they're struggling with or what are some of the things that come up for them when they're out and about in their other relationships the rest of their life. But if that can begin to come up as part of these interactions inside of a container that's been crafted, we can talk about those things, we can surface those things, we can explore those things and people feel safe and accepted and not judged while they're doing that because of the container that's been created.”

• Boaz @ 49min 45sec

  “Gratitude is a pretty cool and enjoyable feeling. And so when there are these enjoyable feelings that are particularly sort of low arousal like gratitude, because you can also have joy and ecstasy and excitement and all that, that's a bit more difficult to go into the body then. But when you have low arousal and positive energy, a really interesting question could be, oh, you feel gratitude now Luke, how does that gratitude manifest in the body? What's the felt sense of that in your experience right now? And maybe they don't even describe a physical sensation because maybe they're not ready to go into the body, or maybe that's not what's most present. But at least there's the invitation, and again, it's like a ritual quality of the deepest way in which we can land things in the present moment is through our somatic experience.”

Our Guest

Boaz Feldman is a practical visionary, experienced psychologist, keynote speaker, and trainer for worldwide positive change. He is a Somatic Experience Practitioner, Organic Intelligence core faculty, and Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy graduate. Boaz founded NeuroSystemics, a somatically-centered approach for meditation training, therapy, and group therapy.

Resources & Links

On This Walk

• https://www.facebook.com/dlukeiorio

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/lukeiorio/

• https://instagram.com/dlukeiorio

• https://instagram.com/onthiswalkshow

Boaz Feldman

• https://www.linkedin.com/in/boazbfeldman/

• Full Episode Transcript

  Boaz [00:00:00] There is an enormous amount of data showing that the people we have around us is the number one factor for our resiliency and our well-being. And it's also the number one factor for what makes us most unhappy.

  Luke [00:00:11] Welcome to On This Walk, a show about the winding journey of life in all its shrillness. I'm Luke Lorio. Please join me and my brilliant heart-centered guests each week as we look to navigate this journey more consciously and authentically, uncovering how to tap back into that sense of connection with self, with soul, and with something bigger than ourselves. Let's go on this walk. Welcome back to On This Walk. Thank you so much for joining us here today. We're going to talk about something uplifting, something that is a true gift. We're going to talk about suffering. Couldn't hold the straight face. Sorry. Okay. Perhaps it's a bit more serious, but this this conversation is actually filled with a whole lot of wisdom, with hope, with actions and practices that support liberation from suffering and from a pretty unique perspective at that, because the background that my guest is bringing to this conversation today, the concept of reducing suffering is one that has been at the forefront of many minds for centuries, even millennia, all the way back to the teachings of the Buddha, all the way through to the work of people and outstanding human beings like Mahatma Gandhi. Many of them have sought to find ways to reduce the suffering of others, to create a more peaceful as well as just world. My guest today, Boaz Feldman, is a psychotherapist and entrepreneur, and he got there via training as a monk and serving in humanitarian crises. He has experienced suffering in his own life, and he has dedicated himself to finding ways to reduce suffering for others. And so today we're getting into a range of different topics. But all along this theme, we get into talking about freedom, the freedom that comes from the alleviation of suffering. And as Boaz is going to point out, it's not just the alleviation of pain that is important in this process, but also the freedom that it opens up. Because when suffering is reduced, it allows us to be more ourselves to relate to each other in new and different, more open ways. We get into how social interaction opens this essential pathway to healing in ways that you know that groups can actually facilitate this type of healing and growth in ways that one on one work alone typically can't do. We talk about how do we incorporate things like somatic expression and our ability to co-regulate within a group as part of this episode as well. We're going to get into some actually pretty interesting topics here as we also talk about the idea of how systemic patterns of suffering in society, how those patterns actually influence our individual experiences of suffering. So kind of that cultural and societal effect on the way in which we process, the way in which we relate to suffering as well. And that's also an important dynamic that gets required through group and circling-type processes. We get into things like how it is that we can create trust and safety in a way that increases connection. How that trust and connection can help us build a more shared sense of humanity. We even get into how social connection is just one of those fundamental keys to happiness. You know, we're social creatures and our relationships have a direct impact on our mental, emotional and physical health. And I got to tell you, that's actually just a few highlights to look forward to in this chat in this episode. So now, formerly Boaz Feldman, he is a practical visionary. He is an experienced psychologist. He's a keynote speaker. He's a trainer acting for worldwide positive change. He trained as a somatic experience practitioner 15 years ago. He taught organic intelligence as the core faculty for Europe for over five years. He trained in mindfulness as a monk in Thailand and graduated with a mindfulness-based cognitive therapy degree from Oxford and Bangor Universities. He has worked in numerous conflict-affected regions like Afghanistan, Myanmar, Burkina Faso, with humanitarian NGOs such as Doctors Without Borders and the International Medical Corps. He is the founder of neuro systemic, semantically centred approach for meditation, training, one on one therapy, as well as group therapy, which is a big focus of our time today. He leads meditation retreats, relational embodiment, residencies, and a three-year care training, which is compassion-based work for personal and professional development. Now you know the drill. Hit the subscribe button if you haven't already, and please remember to share this podcast with a friend. If someone comes to mind as you listen, if you think there's something here that would benefit them, please, please, please share it along. It helps them. And I deeply appreciate it because of how this show continues to grow. [00:04:42]Now let's get on this walk with Boaz and alleviating suffering through groups and social engagement. [5.4s] Boaz, I want to thank you so much for agreeing to come on to this walk. Your background and some of the things I think we're going get into today are of definite interest to me. I have a feeling they're going to be an interest to the audience quite a lot as well. Maybe the place for us to begin was that you've got maybe to get into a little of your background because you've got a pretty unique path to how you've gotten to where you are, as I mentioned a little bit in the preface here. Certainly the academic background. But then you went to study as a monk, then you were involved in all sorts of humanitarian causes and crises and efforts before coming back and pursuing psychotherapy and then the very unique perspective and systems that you are now developing today. And so I was just wondering maybe to go into that background, I'm curious if there was anything that felt like a common thread or something that was kind of pulling you through those different experiences?

  Boaz [00:05:47] I think one of the threads is probably around trying to reduce the amount of suffering that's present. But just to bring it down to one sentence and the focus around suffering shifts. So it's like what type of suffering and what kind of people are suffering? How many people are suffering? And so whether it's like my own very specific moment-to-moment neurotic patterns or if it's more to do with my work in relationships, or it's more to do with trying to build an organization with a team and have all sorts of ways to support broader communities. I feel like it's kind of an ethical, utilitarian perspective around reducing the most amount of suffering for the most amount of people and doing that to the extent that I feel I'm capable. So, you know, right at the beginning it really was just taking care of my own sort of small patterns of mind and heart and then just building things from there in terms of what I was able to take on in a way that felt good and even joyful. Because going toward suffering isn't necessarily fun and it's often, you know, quite hard work and even draining, as I have heard you also speak in different conversations previously. So that thread around suffering and freedom from suffering is also one of the concise ways in which the Buddha, which is one of my traditions of origin, would often frame how he talks. It's just this one thing suffering at the end of it. So I think I can hardly do better than he did. I think, in terms of what links all those threads.

  Luke [00:07:27] Would you say then part of that linkage then, is the perspective of suffering and the alleviation that you were seeking for yourself and then ultimately to be able to apply that to others? But I heard you bring up there as well, is that in that the alleviation of suffering comes the liberation and freedom. And I'm just kind of curious. This is just off the you know, kind of just what strikes me is how much that drive or passion to help people feel that sense of freedom has been part of what has driven you as well. Right. Because it's alleviation is one part of it. But once as that begins to alleviate, it's what they open up into as well. And I'm just curious if that's been another aspect of you have that motivation of that drive for you.

  Boaz [00:08:16] So you mean the elevation of other people's suffering.

  Luke [00:08:19] In the connection to that freedom of what it opens up when we create that alleviation when all of a sudden the suffering begins to wane? What opens up is that beautiful liberation, that freedom to feel like we can be more ourselves, to feel like we can relate in different capacities. And I'm just curious if that was also right. It's not just the alleviation of the pain, but it's the freedom that that introduces and the possibility that that freedom creates.

  Boaz [00:08:43] I can definitely resonate very strongly with the sense of freedom and possibility. Those are two key words that come through in terms of having integrated and purified and restored some of my own nervous systems capacity and develop some competencies as well in terms of my own regulation and well-being and wellness. I guess when [00:09:04]I was a child, you know, Gandhi was one of my big heroes, as I'm sure he is for many people, Mahatma Gandhi, and you know, the way in which he was able to sort of link a deep sense of spiritual freedom and passion, along with a deep sense of engagement in the world, which actually culturally is not so paradoxical in India, it is much more so in our sort of Western secular societies. And so there's always been this drive of being able to relieve suffering in order to make or support a movement towards evolution or growth or enlightenment. Whichever word or movement would make sense to Western society. But there is the sense that from a very sort of Buddhist perspective, I can only engage in the world to the extent that I have freed my own heart. [49.0s] Or I could say maybe, just maybe more precisely, the extent to which I will bring a constructive and beneficial contribution to other beings will only be so to the extent that I've been able to liberate my own heart. I would have a slightly different view just these last few years. But for most of my path, that has been really quite a strong sort of a priori or assumption of prior in terms of how I have engaged.

  Luke [00:10:18] What changed or what shifted a bit in these last few years?

  Boaz [00:10:21] Well, I mean, I think for me that's really the shift from the individual to the systemic. You know, so I have a clinical approach now. We go from neurons to nations. And definitely, you know, I think there's a huge amount of work that we all need to do at the individual level in terms of taking care, of understanding our patterns, understanding where, you know, we fall off the cliff regularly, where we need to hurt ourselves or others. Self-help and personal development movements and framings in the West have gone quite far in terms of offering us the possibility to free ourselves from suffering from an individual level. I've really like I've done many years of silent practice that I've done a good bit of work on myself and still, you know, after so many years and so many hours, decades of practice, like, there's still some things that just just have not shifted. And in fact, I would even go as far to say, have even gotten worse. And so I think, well, there's got to be something else going on here. That's when I started to pay more attention to more systemic perspectives, sociological framings of how suffering arises in society. I did some studies in a more sort of psychosocial focus and [00:11:30]starting to see actually like the way in which a system is organized, the way in which society is organized, the way in which a culture has these basic assumptions, has a huge amount of influence on how we experience suffering as an individual. And so from that perspective, then we need to be able to see at least those patterns at a wider level that then have an impact on me rather than just take it on in terms of my own personal task and responsibility to be freed myself. [26.7s] This is actually there's a whole bunch of stuff I can do very little about and really need to shift frame in terms of reducing that suffering maybe at a systemic level first, or at least in conjunction.

  Luke [00:12:07] Absolutely. So you are actually just starting to tee up one of the kind of the biggest reasons why I wanted to have you here, which is that I've heard you talk about in the past how some of the traditions, traditional methods when it comes to treating mental health, wellness practices, things like that have very largely focused on the individual. And that if we only focus on the individual, we end up missing this broader context as well as broader impact for healing. And so I was hoping that maybe that's where we could begin, which is perhaps maybe if we start with what is it that social engagement and social interaction provides to us in healing that we can't simply do on our own.

  Boaz [00:12:53] I feel like my intuition is that you probably also have thought about this quite a bit. And so I'd be curious to hear maybe from you if there's one or two things you'd like to say about that first, and then I'm happy to respond and engage.

  Luke [00:13:05] I have thought quite a bit about it. It's one of the reasons why I've been leaning towards doing a lot more group based work and circle based work for the types of programing and ways that I serve my clients at this point. And it's for a variety of reasons. One, on just kind of a basic level, so to speak, is that ability to create coagulation regulation inside of a group. And so the ability, right, for our nervous systems to come in to a degree of of regulation for those that are more grounded, to be able to have that influence on others and create this feeling of a safe space, a safe container, which we can do physiologically before the rest of of everything else enters into the equation. I think the other thing is it is what I've seen. [00:13:49]The more that we can not only deepen the way in which we use our presence, things like radio deep listening and things like that with others. That's certainly true in the way that changes. But when we get that present, we become more present to what our experience is in relation to others, and that usually is going to surface things of helping people recognize some of maybe what they're struggling with, or what are some of the things that come up for them when they're out and about in their other relationships, the rest of their life. But if that can begin to come up as part of these interactions inside of a container that's been crafted, we can talk about those things. We can surface those things, we can explore those things, and people feel safe and accepted and not judged while they're doing that. [49.1s] Because of the container that's been created, it's released for myself. That's and that's probably where I where I would begin in terms of what I've thought about and why I've started to gravitate in that direction. But I'm very obviously, I'm very curious because I don't have a clinical background. So a lot of what I've done has been through trial and error, through experience, certainly through a lot of layman's research, through the a lot of different exposure I've had, a lot of from teachers and programs. But from a political perspective, it sounds like it goes a lot deeper than that.

  Boaz [00:15:07] Yeah, well, those are those are great Luke, and I think you touch on probably the two among the most important points on what the theory and the data show, which are actually kind of on a continuum when we talk about safety and read your audiences in terms of regulation and nervous system dynamics. So one theory, the polyvagal Theory by Steven Porges describes that we have this neuro receptive dynamic, which is a very fast paced neural network that's constantly scanning into the environment to see whether we're safe or not. See, it's basically an on off switch. And that neuroception, as he called it, is always online, like there isn't a single moment that that is offline. And for this very basic reason that evolutionarily this has really served us to be able to remain alive and increases our chances of survival. And that new receptive network has evolutionarily been linked more and more powerfully to the people we have around us. Because as a social species, it's thanks to the people we've had around us that have increased the correlation for our new receptive modeling of whether we're safe or not, whether it's feels like it's okay to be relaxed or if we should get into a fight, flight or freeze nervous system. States which are the threat response is we automatically get into the right decisions. Those are spontaneous, very fast and very powerful nervous system responses to a threat. And so feeling safe and having people that we get along with around us then really allow this neuroception to give us the signal of safety. And that then, as you see, is a way of co regulating. So instead of for us to do the work like we can think about nice things, we can allow ourselves to maybe send ourselves kindness or love or appreciation that we might meditation, or we can do all sorts of awareness, practices of music or dance, creative arts practices. Also, we all have different ways of getting better, but. Spontaneously. When we are in the presence of people we trust and love without doing anything that allows us to feel relaxed, like with you. You know, I've listened to it a couple of times, and just now it seems like there's quite a bit of visual contact and a sense of care and curiosity for one another, and that's helping me feel more relaxed in my chair. And I'm not having to work on that. But you are doing the work for me as in fact without even necessarily having it feel like it's work for yourself. It's just, you know, there's a certain chemistry in the space and that and so [00:17:39]being with others really actually saves us a huge amount of work that we would have to do by ourselves if we were alone or if we were to be alone. That's why we go to therapy because the therapist helps us hold that. But when we're with others, there are a few people. Actually. It's like in a group, you know, if you have if you're able to build that quality of safety and trust, which is, of course, the basic condition, then like a lot of things happen from there without having to do anything. [26.2s] And the one theory, the social baseline theory by Cohen and Barra talk about others being a bio-energetic resource. So others like you, are resourcing my system and allowing me to reduce the amount of energy I use for my own regulation and cognitive creativity and sense of internal connection just by the fact that we are here with good intentions and interacting in a way that feels safe enough for me, safe enough, and can never really feel totally safe. But safe enough, I think is a good way to think. The second point that you're then leading is that when we feel safe enough and hopefully this might even happen in this meeting, I'm not sure, but there are ways in which we interact with one another that then impact one another. So you're asking me a question or I'm asking you a question and we're saying things to one another. Maybe we feel triggered by something or maybe we feel joyful about something. And so it's like your presence and your experience then informs me as to how I am and what my take is on things. And there is a possibility of exploring that and taking time to sort of peel it out very softly, very gently, very carefully that I can do, because you have this quality of presence and this sense of capacity that then allows me, it gives me more space to be able to have perspective of my own experience. And we can do that to the extent that we feel safe enough to go inside and explore. Or maybe I have enough presence that I can hold your process, vice versa. So in a way, it's like we talk about mindfulness practice, and as you said, [00:19:39]I was a Buddhist monk and I've done a huge amount and I still do, you know, a huge amount of practice in silence and alone. And yet being with others, it's like others are doing the meditation for you in a kind of way. Other people become your mindfulness, and your mindfulness multiplies exponentially to the quality of trust and safety and awareness of our way of in which we interact together. [23.0s] And that's really like evolutionarily an immense gift that we have as a social species. So those two reasons, you mentioned it, and there's a huge amount of data today that is unequivocal in terms of how beneficial and important that is, which is why I'm very surprised, knowing the clinical field just in terms of our general culture, how little importance we bring to being in groups. But actually I'm not so surprised. Now. I've done a little bit of work it to try to understand that, but it is still striking that we wouldn't take more advantage of that.

  Luke [00:20:35] Well, I think I actually want to ask about that as well of of perhaps why we haven't done that. And I'll I'll share a little my own perspective on that. But just to draw a couple of further extended points from what you've brought up, because I'm not sure I've I've actually thought about framing it this way, which I so deeply appreciate. Your perspective is that when we are in that group environment where the container has been created and others are holding that space in such a way as it creates co regulation, meaning that I am able to relax, my anxiety goes down, my worry goes down, and I'm no longer spending my full physiological, emotional and mental capacities or fuel on trying to feel safe. Instead, I feel more safe so that I can now focus my attention differently. And I can focus right on on what needs to surface, what needs to be expressed, what needs to be witnessed, what needs to be said. And so that we naturally get into that more relaxed state. And I'm just thinking of, you know, some of the circles that I've run even very recently where by the second or third circle you can see that initial little bit of like anxious energy when people enter and they're going to start to share. And then within the first maybe minute or two of them sharing, you can just watch their energy level settle. And as they do, they'll pause, they'll stop themselves and they'll go, hold on. Now, what I really wanted to say or what I really wanted to get to with this, right. And you're literally just watching that energetic process unfold as they sink into the correlation and into that space. Right. So I really appreciate the perspective that you added to that to help me see it kind of in that vein, What you started to bring up was how we haven't or we've tended to stay more on the individual model. And it was one of the other advantages of a social type setting that I consistently point to is one of the other values of this. And I'm just kind of curious how this lines up with perhaps why we haven't done more in a social setting is that I very often tell people that in addition, all the benefits that we're talking about in among others. One of the other things is that as you begin to share and work through whatever it is, it's been very difficult and challenging and cause hurt and maybe pain in your life. When you look around the circle and realize you're not the only one and alone. And there is that recognition of humanity that occurs. But. That also to me is why we very likely, as may be the recipients of such care. Have also sought more of the individual outlets is because it feels safer. It doesn't feel as exposed. It feels like if we admit in front of a group, are we admitting vulnerabilities, are admitting weakness if we go to the stereotypes of this? And I'm curious. I'm sure there's all sorts of reasons why we've tended to stick to more individual models than group models. But I'm curious if that's something that has factored in to why what has maybe been a reason why we sought more individual care and collective care. But I'm also curious about what are some of those other reasons why maybe the 1 to 1 model has been more prevalent then these social relational aspects, which to me are more in line with who we are as a species.

  Boaz [00:24:02] Great question, and I totally agree with you on the first point about what we call common humanity, the sense of if we share something. And most often times in a group, there will at least be one other person who feels at least partially the same as you do. I mean, that's pretty systematic. There's a couple of reasons for that. One is that actually there is someone who is already aware of that particular experience, and that's just reflecting it back. But actually, there's a huge amount of what we call sort of energetic physiological or even emotional cognitive resonance that happening simultaneously in the moment. It's like the way in which we talk right now, and there's a whole series of mirror neurons. I mean, there's been a little bit of controversial data around that, but I think there's a fair amount of evidence to say that this is a likely possibility, that there's lots of ways in which we are thinking together as we're talking and far beyond just in terms of basic physiology. But there's emotional processes, cognitive processes and even energetic processes in this in the space, like a field around us that's synchronizing as we build that trust and attunement and connection. I mean, it's not always like that, obviously. Then if what I see is influence has an influence in you in the space, then in a way we are also creating a common humanity. So that's a really important part because as we are in these circles, it's not just that other people are like us, but actually by actually verbalizing something, we are creating a reality that becomes more common. Which is also why, I mean, I know in the US this is a big deal of course, in terms of the polarization of societies and not just in the US, Switzerland, thankfully we have a lot more of a sort of a multi-party system and things are much more diverse in the system. But unless you have these avenues and pathways for discussion, then the general trend will be to polarize and be different and in fact be antagonistic. And so the very fact of discussing really already is a huge factor for bringing people together, even if they have very different views. And just to make a side point there, in terms of our politics in Switzerland, we have seven people guiding a city or a country. We don't have one person, we have seven, and they're all from different parties and or most of them. So it's like any decision or anything always has to be in discussion. And I think that's really been quite a helpful way to govern because we don't then get to these very extreme shifts and like there's very strong and polarized systems and in a way we could consider our own minds very similarly. Nobody really is completely saying, you know, we all have different views that are shifting all the time, and it's the same in a group. It's like the group is also kind of completely out of control and everybody has different view. And how do you make sense of that? And there's a sense of actually relaxing into that and relaxing into the wider collective group mind or the group field or what I call a social self as well as like a social organism whereby work, which is the part of something wider that doesn't make sense to us, but somehow if we're able to have a good enough connection and safe enough, then that feels really nourishing and helpful. And there's like a sense of bowing down to then even a sense of sacredness to that whole wider being that we are a part of and creating as we are speaking. And the part about, you know, why has there been so much emphasis on the individual model? I mean, I guess it depends how far back you want to go in terms of clinical practice. Freud was clearly one of the main innovators in terms of talking therapy, and he worked with people individually and that came from the psychiatric model, which then also had a very sort of physiological emphasis, you know, like looking for things in the brain, in the individual right, which then came from like Descartes and Carr's Cartesian worldview, which was then preceded by Hobbes and Locke, is this whole sort of separation of the individuals with the environment. So and you could go down further and there's a huge amount of sort of philosophical heritage that we have in our societies that have just increased how solid we see the self in terms of our physiology. And what I find exciting is that there is more and more data like as Barra and Cohen I was mentioning earlier with the social baseline theory, they're going into what you call a radical embodiment where were you able to see that actually, just even you and me, as we're talking right now, there are sort of indicators of our hormones and our physiology that's shifting, that's synchronizing, and that's in a way allowing our even our level of perception of how we consider ourselves to be conjoined. So right now, I'm myself, Boaz with the body, but I'm also you with me. And I'm also creating, as we're collectively creating a self just right now as we're interacting. And that has, as I said, you know, in terms of me not feeling like I need to spend so much time or effort in breathing or in looking around the environment like we are then creating this self that is allowing me to relax. And that sort of social self is also a self. And so in a way we never really get round around the self is just we're creating different selves at different levels. There's like an individual self, a social self, a societal self. And I think perceiving it that way, which formally, you know, has been theorized as multilevel selection or multilevel evolution. So rather than just seeing evolution in terms of individual parts, again, you know, like biologically has been this huge trend, while we're starting to see a multilevel perspective of self where it is just not just the individual, but it's also individual and groups and then there's species and yet just broaden it out instantly. But there's many different empirical fields of data that have gathered around the conception of an individual that have strengthened and sort of. Overly emphasized this this layer of the self and under scrutinize and haven't benefited as much from the social selves of the group or even just the dietetic self with you and me.

  Luke [00:29:59] It's interesting because one of the things that I've chatted about on this show at the individual level of this is the recognition of parts work to be able to recognize there's right, there's multiple parts to us, there's different voices are different aspects of our personality, right? All all sorts of parts of us. And yet the typical view in you know, and we haven't been exposed to that way of thinking or that lens is we just look at this single solitary, solid self as if it was this one, right? Certain thing and what you're describing, which at least this is where my head went, is it's very, very similar then to think of all of our parts, meaning our individual self, our social self, our self in relation, our societal communal self, our even humanity level self, as it were, as we continue to expand our globally speaking. And it is that recognition of, okay, how do I bring all of my parts online? How do I bring awareness to all of my parts? Because it adds it creates this ability for us to be significantly more holistic and as you say, systemic in the way that we begin to think and we begin to relate. We begin to solve problems, let alone do our healing work individually and collectively. It's interesting because I'm now in what you're describing. I'm seeing the macro to what I've looked at from a micro standpoint. So I'm seeing the fractal of the way that you're describing this.

  Boaz [00:31:29] Yeah. Like, look, this is so significant. You know, if you think about a pathology like depression, because one of the one of the key dynamics in depression is lack of meaning or meaninglessness. Right. And that leads to like affective anhedonia so that the very low, low, stable affects sense of lack of motivation, all sorts of symptoms that. But if you think about if we really had a worldview where we are, our society is us, like we are society and like really not so fragmented in terms of how we consider ourselves, then we're not just trying to get better out of depression in order to feel better. It's like, you know, I work with so many people in depression and it's like, Well, why would I even want to feel better? It's like, what's what's the point of it anyway? Right? And when you recreate or when you reconceptualize, because it is just a way of looking at it. I think it's a way of looking that's not just more helpful. It's also a way of looking that's more accurate in terms of the neurophysiological and social experience that we have as humans. And just as a as a life form is that you're getting better or like your attempt to get better is also then to have a contribution and to benefit other beings and to do actually has a purpose wider than who you are. So yeah, we have this. Terence Deakin, neurobiologist in the US talks about and directness. So it's like we have this fundamental drive in our as a complex system of a life form that we are, we have this drive to transcend what we are, to go beyond it. That's, that's one of the fundamental ways in which you describe our life form or life form in general in terms of the later stages of evolution. And so depression, you know, if we think about that and we could conceptualize healing an individual work as a way to support more and more embeddedness in these wider and wider layers rather than just remaining at the level of the individual. It's like, why do I need to get better? Because I need to get better. And like that's kind of a neurotic circle. That's really very problematic in terms of the conceptual framework of what we consider meaningful, how we even consider ourselves to be a part of life as a wider whole. And I think holistic or integral, I can't remember the exact words you use the but there is a sense of self as a part of a wider system that fundamentally, if it is too fragmented from, it, will never really be able to be embedded in it in a meaningful way. And so I think such a conception of the individual is really at the core of how we consider healing.

  Luke [00:34:02] What you describe is that when we understand our relationship at these multiple levels, that is beyond self and into the layers of social, societal and beyond. What you brought me back to, honestly, was that I've had the good fortune of of for a brief period of time studying in some of the indigenous traditions and the recognition of the way in which community works with in some of the First Nations. And the fact I mean, even what you're describing in terms of the seven leaders that that work with in a given city, let alone within the Swiss government, reminds me very much of the way in which tribal leaders would sit in council with one another to be able to influence the direction and be able to lead not from just one perspective, but. From from the many from from many contributing to that that collective wisdom that was there. Well, when we see ourselves as part of that community, part of that tribe, whatever vernacular we want to use, we feel a sense of utility, meaning we see ourselves as vital to the success of the family unit, the communal unit, the village we're in, the town we're in and what have you. Well, if we see that we both have meaning and we have connectedness to just I mean, can I get any more baseline in terms of of at least some level of baseline for our mental health and our overall well-being if we have those two things. Now we've got a different reservoir from which to to operate from and a different sense to be able to operate from. So I can see the different ways that this is all connecting. The additionally, see, I want to make a comment on this, but then I want to come back to the healing aspect of this is in the way you were just describing, the ways in which we learn to relate to one another in these types of healing environments and healing type circles, healing groups is that that creates a new baseline of interaction, a new baseline of interpersonal skills, a new baseline of the way that we communicate about challenging circumstances and what have you, and then that can carry through to the rest of our lives. And now we're actually starting to inform a collective baseline for others outside of the actual practice or healing circles that we maybe have been involved in. The piece I just did want to come back to is if we could just get specific for a moment of because I know maybe uses his example. I know that you run one of the groups that you run is called a resilience circle. And so I'm just kind of curious about if we look into the dynamic of something specific of what does that approach, what does a circle like that actually look like do? How does it function in a manner that is helping somebody heal particular issues or traumas that they have gone through in their lives?

  Boaz [00:36:50] For how long have you got? Luke So you were talking just earlier in terms of how you start your groups and you see a few minutes in how people relax, lower down and start to be able to have more perspective, more space into their from their experience. So typically what we do, we begin we do with a two-minute to a three minute orientation practice. An orientation practice really just means welcoming what's here. It's arriving in the present moment, making ourselves comfortable physiologically. You know, it's like, as you say, you know, we we're jittery, we're coming from somewhere. And so even just that, it's very important. And given the tone of my voice that I'm speaking now, maybe I'll lower my voice a little bit. Slow down. It'll allow just a sense of ease and welcoming. And as we do that, and as we do that as a collective. You know, you were talking about the indigenous tradition. And for myself, I've spent several months with the some Aboriginal traditions in Thailand and also as a monk, you know, I've spent several months in different places that were quite far removed and also not as a monk, but the practice there quite removes spaces. And there is the idea of also having a little ritual. You know, it's something that we all are part of. It's something that we all do collectively. It's something that we're doing that has meaning inherently in the experience. So this shared experience that is then also an experience that's specifically geared towards regulation, which means reducing arousal that feels overwhelming and increasing the sense of spaciousness and capacity to include. Then already that sets up what we call in complex systems the initial conditions for a system to then be able to develop in a way that feels regulated and that feels constructive and helpful because [00:38:41]you can have a lot of powerful group experiences, but they can also be very problematic and in fact, not just retraumatized but traumatizing in new ways. And so how we are as a group really matters and how we build the sense of safety and creative spaces. And so those that that orientation practice, [17.8s] I mean, there's many ways we can do it, but that's one specific practice that we do. And then depending on how mature the group is, if it's a very new group, then maybe as facilitators will be a bit more directive. Or maybe there's somebody in the group that has been making some facial expressions or that feels that they would like to share. So we'll invite them directly if it's a more mature group. I would just say and what's here would just open up spontaneously to what's around and then let as much as possible. Our aim is facilitators to let the group take leadership in terms of whatever feels attuned and supportive in terms of their own rhythm of emergence, both individually and collectively. And that's, of course, one of the things that we're always negotiating for. Titrating around is how much focus does each person need and what channels are we sort of streaming through? Is it more sort of affect? Is it more sensation? Is it more meaning orientation? Is it more that we need to focus on one person that helps everybody else open up? Or is it more that we need a bit more dynamic interaction between people and sometimes we don't really know and that's also okay. And we just sort of intuitively moment to moment, just allow every experience to inform our judgment. And that's how we get to figure out what's helpful or not. I have developed quite, I guess, quite a rigorous map, and I'm not the only one. I base this on different other research, like this system centered therapy, which has also a conceptual framework led interventions for group work. My one of my mentors, Irving Yellen, I wouldn't say necessarily has quite a developmental framework in terms of how group unfolds or matures, but has done a lot of work in his written word, both [00:40:41]in articles and books with his coauthor, Mona Leitch, [2.6s] who is now the president of the American Psychotherapy Association, and with whom we do supervision because Irving is now getting really old. So unfortunately, would not them you benefit from his wisdom. Then there is like a conceptual framework that have developed around what are the initial steps that we need to do as facilitators to help shape those initial conditions to be as safe as possible. And then from there, how do we support the group to take gradually, step by step, more and more leadership and responsibility as their capacity to build.

  Luke [00:41:16] Something I chair very much with you is how it is that we form certain orientations, certain rituals for how we enter into that space, because not only is it helping us to arrive with more presence where we are, the more often that we do it, the quicker we're able to to drop into that space, to feel the kind of the safety, the comfort, the acceptance that has been created there. I totally get the perspective of sometimes it's working more equally with each individual. Sometimes there's an individual who's doing the work, but it's really informing, opening up everybody in that process. So we've got to be intuitive with that. And it's funny because it's it's one of those things, you know, I never cease to be amazed at how true the old adage of trust the process is, because as we go through these and each one of these circles may look vastly different in terms of content from one to the next or flow from one to the next. And yet somehow at the end, there's a palpable feel that is different among everybody that has participated in that particular experience. Part of it is the, you know, the the the correlation that goes on. Part of it is them dropping away and allowing certain things to drop, to be release, to be let go in the process. But it it it really truly does amaze me just how often people sit back and they're like, I'm not even sure I can fully put words to what's different right now, but I know something's very, very different in this.

  Boaz [00:42:43] That in and of itself is an amazing intervention. Is there something different? Is there a shift? And I'm curious from you Luke like what kind of rituals or sort of habitual ways of facilitating have you been proposing or do you know about.

  Luke [00:42:56] For myself in terms of of some of the practices that I have used or even just, you know, some of those rituals? Very often when we're beginning a circle, it's going to begin with some type of a centering meditation. That centering meditation usually is also going to connect them to some type of gratitude that is there. And as as we move into it, usually we will ask one of those types of presence or presence type questions to elicit just the initial share, to get a pulse of where everybody is at as they arrive in this space. So it could just simply be, as you said, something like what's present for you in this moment? And then opening up the space to see who it is that wants to step in, to be able to share from that perspective what is it that you know that you feel is within your internal, whether it's, you know, what's your internal weather report right now? So just little things like that that allow people to open into expression after we have begun centering. And it just is another way of them being able to acknowledge what is what is for them right now. And that begins to to inform. Actually. What is present? What? What is it that might be a common theme? Or what is it that maybe individually there might be a little extra support that any individual happens to need in that particular moment in time.

  Boaz [00:44:15] I think that's beautiful look, and in a way, it's interesting because even as you speak it now, I hadn't quite seen it that way before, but the sense of inviting someone to share what's present here now actually does feel also like a ritual for me in the sense that this is a practice that we do. We've all agreed that this is a good thing. Most of the time, I mean, sometimes you really don't want to be in the present and you'll also want to respect that. So it's kind of paradoxical, but there is this quality of actually like our dance is here and now, and coming back to that is a way of like bowing down to that totem of what we've all agreed to be one of these conditions that helps us and is beneficial for us. I think that's really interesting.

  Luke [00:45:00] Just you had mentioned before just some of the other practices that you use to to help navigate through these conversations, to help people elicit what it is that maybe they need to be supported on in any given moment or given time given experience.

  Boaz [00:45:12] I can give you maybe two principles and two practices. One principle is that the one as facilitators is that the group starts to have a life of its own without us having to initiate. So in the beginning, we definitely need to hold a strong leadership position and also model like evolutionarily, the way in which we've come to learn is to learn just to seeing how others do things like this, like this, the school's way of like books and reasoning and all that is very recent, this like microsecond of our evolution. So really most most learning happens through seeing. And so as facilitators, we really want to invite curiosity. We we want to be caring about whatever is present. And so our own quality of presence, which is often something we need to develop before we come into group work, which is why, like in our in our system, we really do a lot of personal work and then we work with people 1 to 1 and then going to group work then ideally. And like if you were to share something or, you know, if I was to see you quite agitated, I would see what I could do to offer a rhythm. Even in the way in which I ask the question, the tone of voice. I use the verbal language, maybe even the nonverbals of putting my hands in the heart, like the whole physiological posture of care and compassion. And one of the things that we get to see in groups, and we really encourage that and we do sort of an operant conditioning process from psychology in which you're familiar with that. But basically it's a behavioral approach whereby if somebody does something good, you encourage them or you validated and you really recognize it as a great thing. So like if I do this and I feel like I do my test and then I see another participant doing that, when someone else is sharing, it's like, Oh, Sarah, I saw that when John was sharing, you put your hand. That was I thought that was so touching. So I don't focus on John so much, but I focus on Sarah. And then the key part about that, the principle about that is that it then Sarah becomes one of those bio energetic resources for John spontaneously. It helps to co regulate the space without me having to do it. And so that's just like a non-verbal and we have a very strong somatic emphasis in our work because that's my original background, which is actually like talk about the group work is very little practice in clinical, clinical field. In general, somatic group work is even like just not even existed. I mean I did do it recently, but it's just about starting now, really. So. The principle is to encourage as much sort of holding and reflecting and caring energy that is present in the participants. And that can be through their enough. But it can also be like if a participant asks a question to another participant. That's because that's freeing us from having to be, again, the one that's inquiring and that's allows more sort of field energy to be to emerge. That's one principle. Another principle, which I guess I shared there implicitly, is really to encourage a lot of as much embodied action as possible. So I put my hands in the heart. I've been celebrating, you know, what you said several times to Robin Dunbar, who's an experiment psychologist at Oxford, has done a lot of work to find out also through like reciprocal movements in ritual, how that really increases some hormonal dynamics that increase well-being and reduce levels of pain. And so if people do that at the same time, actually that does bring a ritual quality within the space. And oftentimes what'll happen is like if you say something sensitive and we're all there watching you, and then I celebrate your courage, and then someone else, maybe just a second later will have a different rhythm and just that and it'll be like it'll literally be visually like a wave that you see through the different screens people. So you share what you share, but then you also see sort of the softening down in the, the lower the integration of that energy into the field physically. Another principle would be to encourage as much sort of verbal, somatic or physiological expression of these emotional experiences and even maybe these ways which we haven't in our own minds. Those would be two things. And so an intervention, of course, is for us to do it and to model that. Another intervention is to congratulate and encourage participants that are doing it so that that can really take a life of its own and a more specific way of encouraging that, again, as a as a second intervention would be when someone is experiencing something that you talk about gratitude, gratitude is pretty, pretty cool and enjoyable feeling. And so when there are these enjoyable feelings that are particularly sort of low arousal, like gratitude, because you can also have like joy and ecstasy and excitement and all of that, that's a bit more tangible to go into the body. Then when you have low arousal, positive energy, you know, a really interesting question could be how you feel gratitude now and how does that gratitude manifest in the body? What's the felt sense of that in your experience right now? And maybe they don't even describe a physical sensation because maybe they're not ready to go into the body, or maybe that's not what's most present, but at least there's the implicit invitation. And again, it's like a ritual quality of like the deepest way in which we can learn things in the present moment is through our somatic experience. And so making that habit and inviting them through those low positive arousal experiences really makes it as easy as possible, even for people who have no experience of going into the body. We can go into more complex dynamics of how to go into the body when it's more difficult, but I think those are two already there.

  Luke [00:50:56] So just a couple of things that I want to call out here. You know, being in these types of groups, whether they be healing or resiliency groups or the types of circles that I'm used to facilitating, there are so many compound benefits that come along in these processes. You know, we certainly talked about how much we gain by co regulating within these groups, meaning how it is that our nervous systems begin to relax and go into their rest and rejuvenate states as we begin to sink in, which opens up more trust and connection not only with others but even with ourselves. We simply feel more at ease. But the part that I wanted to call out, based on what Boaz just described, is for you to consider the qualities of presence and connection that come through this type of work. So first, with presence, [00:51:42]when we truly give ourselves over to being present with somebody else, to deeply listen to them, to listen with our whole heart, to be present to what we're feeling as they speak and share to feel almost what they're feeling in those moments. To notice not just their words, but their energy, their emotions, their physiology, and even what they're not saying as well. Notice their pauses. Notice their courage. Notice their openness. Their vulnerability. And also maybe notice where their stress and tension seems to lie. Notice as much as it is as you can take in when you are present with somebody in this way, think about what that does for them. Think about how accepted, how understood, how seen and acknowledged they feel. And now consider how this feels when someone does this for you. [51.7s] When somebody is truly that fully present to whatever it is that you have to share to express or that you're going through at this time. That's a gift. And it's a gift that gives as much to them as it does to you, because through that presence, you begin to feel deeper connection as well. This connection isn't just to the surface level of a story. It's not a moment of commiserating saying, Oh yeah, I know that feeling too. It's much deeper. It's like you can truly see someone for more of who it is that they really are, perhaps more deeply than you've ever seen them before. And when it's someone in a circle that maybe you don't know so well, it can be a big opening moment to see just how much connection can be established when we meet each other this way. Now take that level of presence and that level of connection that you're building and practicing in a group like this. And now bring that home to your partner. Bring that home to your kids. As a leader. See what it does when you can be that present with those that you work with and serve as a doctor, a nurse, teacher, a counselor, hospice, professional administrator, or cashier. See how your day in the days of the people around you begin to change when you can share a moment in which you are truly, fully present to them, to who they are, to whatever it is that they're experiencing and sharing in that space. Even if it's just a quick exchange, meet their humanity with yours. These practices can bring healing on so many levels that can ripple out into your life. Lean into them. And if you have never experienced something like this, reach out to me on on this walk ecom or find Boaz and [00:54:18]his company Neurosis Stomachs, [1.2s] which is just neurosis stomach, dawg. These are life changing circles of support and trust. They will ripple through and create changes far and wide in your life that you can't even fathom at this time. I hope you take up that invitation and reach out to one of us. I appreciate all of it. I think the, you know, the the return or the reminder bringing us back to the schematic elements of this process as well, especially inside of a social setting. And it can be something that is simple. It could be the hands over the heart, it could be the celebration of, you know, the wiggle of the fingers, as it were, where we're starting to connect what we're experiencing to that embodiment piece, to an expression of the felt sense that we have. And when we're doing that, we're using more and more of our whole system with what we're experiencing. I would imagine that that creates right, that creates a very different integration for us. And if we're then mirroring that or supporting that and celebrating others, we're doing the same. It creates more and more of that social coherence that now begins to take place. And again, all of that creates more meaning, it creates more connectedness, which creates more healing. So it's it's this beautiful, virtuous cycle that you're describing. I think maybe just to actually just start to bring us around full circle. Just one other thing that I was curious for maybe you to comment on, and this is truly just your perspective, your comment, your experiences on any of these things, is that recently I've noticed in, you know, certainly in the last couple of years, I think one of the last major reports was in 2021, if I recall. But I think it's been updated since is this recognition that [00:56:11]now more than ever and this initial study was focused on men where men have less close relationships in their lives than we pretty much ever have. And over the course of the last 30 years, men are I think it's like five times more likely to have one or no close friends in their lives. And when it was paralleled, while women are not quite as the statistics aren't quite as drastic as they were for men, women have also noticed that decrease that falloff of close relationships within their lives. [31.9s] The reason why I wanted to bring this up, and just for the perspective that you can share, is the importance of relationship to our total well-being and mental health. And there is repeated publishing on this of just how vital relationships are and to our happiness, to our well-being, to our longevity, even in. So I guess why I'm bringing that up is I'm curious if you have any specific perspective you'd like to add to to any of that information, any of those reports, but also why this work that you're doing and taking this more social collective approach is so important to us today with what's going on in the world right now?

  Boaz [00:57:28] Great question, Luke. I think this study might be a study also in the US and I think in the US it probably tends to be a little bit more extreme than it is. Yeah. I have read also another study recently showing that since the 1960s there's been a steady increase in the number of square meters per house and the study decrease in the number of friends proportionately. And I think if we pair those like bringing in in sort of a more systemic view on individual well-being, then we can see that more materialist values, more sort of accumulation, centered values around the well-being they will supposedly create, although they do create a very short term. But it's obviously there is some some sugar there for us, the cycle. And then I think what's interesting is that to the extent that we are socially embedded and that we are, that we have meaningful relationships, we could also see to that same extent, we will not be sugar addicted to those sort of. Those ways of being and experiencing the world or running after the world that are going to be fundamentally less satisfying. I mean, there's been a very interesting I mean, if you think about materialism as an addiction, which, you know, as a society, we can totally see it. We are there right now like we are addicted to stuff and to wealth accumulation. And we have. As a society become addicted to that also because we don't have as much resourcing socially. There is really a correlation between the two. There's been some studies on rats by Professor Alexander in Canada showing that if you have certain rats that are have just water and drugs, two bottles of water, water and water and just drugs and that's all they got in the cage, they will get addicted and they will die. But if you have also friends in the cage and if you have, you know, a rat Park, as he calls it, then you won't get any deaths and you barely get any addictions. And so there is really something about how much effort to be made in order to try to be happy. We all do. Like fundamentally, we're driven to for that. We're wired for that. And so really having a lot of very good friends is the lazy person's way to be happy much more safely. Now, of course, there is a huge reason and you asked earlier about the individual, why is there so much focus on the individual? One of the major, major issue is in our evolution, and it's been a big it's still a big issue right now is the issue of in-group outgroup and the issue of shame. And that we don't experience shame or very little of it when we're alone. But it's like socially shame has the same mechanisms then we experience in extreme moments of a threat and near death. And so shame as a social exclusion mechanism is kind of like a physiological death. In fact, you know, evolutionarily we were to be shamed and treated as outgroup, and then that would seriously reduce our chances of survival. It really wasn't. And so [01:00:32]being together with others in building strong, safe relationships in ways that are very meaningful and connected is actually quite a difficult thing to do that is required. But it's as difficult as it would be to make a couple million dollars. You know, it's like it's not any more difficult than that. And in fact, in terms of a really durable, sustainable and meaningful way to live happily, the data shows unequivocally that there is a lot more chances to get there through true friendship than there is through money or any kind of addiction or, you know, things that you would predict, any kind of thing you would put a huge amount of effort towards. [33.7s] And I really mean that to the high majority of people today. There is an enormous amount of data showing that the people we have around us is the number one factor for our resiliency and our well-being. And it's also the number one factor for what makes us most unhappy. So, you know, it's a high power variable that we need to negotiate and engage with very wisely. But, you know, through the practices of surfing that you do and the ways in which we have these emphasis, like on your podcast, then we can really there is a lot of potential to really grow that muscle and it is just the muscle to be able to be good at it and to benefit from it. So I really encourage, you know, all of your work and all of the ways in which those social approaches can be valued.

  Luke [01:01:49] Boaz I want to thank you for being on this walk. I really deeply appreciate all that you've had to share, all your experience, all your wisdom that you have had to share here for everybody. You'll find all of Boaz and information in the in the show notes, so just go ahead and check out those links. But, Boaz, I want to thank you for being here. I want to thank you for the work you're doing in the world.

  Boaz [01:02:06] And thank you, Luke, as well for your your great questions. And from the sense that I've gotten in your and you in your podcast, I'm I'm heartened by the depth of humanity and the insight and the care. And also, you know, what I feel most deeply in terms of hearing your voice is like your real sense of care about your own experience, about other people's experience, about bringing goodness and access to these very valuable resources to others. And so highly value that I congratulate you for it.

  Luke [01:02:38] Thank you, Boaz. I appreciate that so much. Thank you for joining me for this episode of On This Walk. Before signing off. Please subscribe to the show and don't miss a single episode. Also, please rate reviewers. This helps me greatly in getting the word out about this show. And remember, this is just the start of our conversation to keep it going, ask questions, add your own thoughts. Join the ongoing conversation by just heading over to onthiswalk.com and click on community in the upper right hand corner. It's free to join until we go on this walk again I'm Luke Lorio. Be well.