049 - Timeless Wisdom to Becoming the Strong Man Every Woman Wants with Elliott Katz

What does it mean to be a man in a world where divorce rates are soaring? Are we missing a vital piece of the puzzle, a key ingredient that can unlock the secrets to successful relationships? It's time to confront these questions head-on and embark on a journey that steps in between the current, conflicting notions of masculinity. 

This week on "On This Walk," my walking partner is Elliott Katz. We discuss the challenges men face in relationships and explore the importance of leadership, decision-making, and taking responsibility in relationships.

Elliott shares his personal journey of realizing the need for these qualities after his divorce. We also discuss the impact of gender roles, media stereotypes, and the importance of respect in relationships. We emphasize finding a balance between vulnerability and strength, as well as the significance of personal growth and communication.

In This Episode

  • (02:28) Elliott’s journey of self-discovery

  • (06:45) Navigating the path towards seeking and finding timeless wisdom for personal growth and leadership development.

  • (10:30) The shift in gender roles due to industrialization.

  • (12:23) How negative stereotypes in the media can affect men's behavior and lead to relationship issues.

  • (13:48) Understanding warning signs for personal introspection and relationship assessment in men's lives.

  • (21:37) The balance between strength and vulnerability

  • (24:35) The importance of men taking charge and making decisions in relationships

  • (27:00) Reflecting on experiences and integrating new ways of showing up.

  • (30:33) Why do men need to trust their own judgment? 

  • (33:03) Effective communication in relationships

  • (37:31) The evolution of masculinity and the future of manhood

  • (39:07) Elliott’s guide for men to follow on their personal growth journey.

Notable Quote

  • “You see a difficult situation, step forward, take charge, and it makes the woman feel so safe and protected. It makes her love you so much. That's what she wants. She wants a man who takes charge and the decision to be made. You're not imposing your decision. You can say, “Well, I think we should do this here. What do you think?” Instead of asking, “What should we do?” Don't say that. Come forward. Don't come empty-handed. Make a decision. And if she has input, that's great, but don't just leave it to her. Don't think you're being too passive. Don't think, well, I'm showing her I believe in gender equality. To me, the main thing is leadership.” – Elliott

Our Guest

Elliott Katz is an accomplished author, penning two books, including his remarkable debut titled "Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants: Timeless Wisdom on Being a Man." Not stopping there, he has also graced the airwaves, making appearances on over 200 radio shows and television broadcasts. Utilizing his expertise as a coach and guide, Elliott has established himself as a prominent figure for men seeking personal growth and self-discovery.

Resources & Links

On This Walk

Elliott Katz

Mentioned 

  • [00:00:00] Luke: Welcome, welcome, welcome, and you are listening to On This Walk, the show that helps men rediscover their unique path to true freedom. My name is Luke Iorio. I've spent the last two decades in the human potential industry helping teaching, coaching thousands of people to create a more fulfilling, deeply aligned life.

    [00:00:18] And it's my mission to reawaken and reconnect men to the joy, purpose, and peace that will help you become who you aspire to be for yourself, your loved ones, and those you lead. There's an interesting polarity that I've been watching over the past many years for men. How is it that we're supposed to be both open, vulnerable, emotionally connected, and flexible, but at the same time be strong, decisive, resilient, maybe even a little bit wild?

    [00:00:46] How do we become more of this balanced and integrated man that knows what is called for and when for the women and partners that we love? My guest today felt into the routine of being too flexible, too amenable in attempt to give his wife now his ex-wife what she wanted. The thing is, that's not what she wanted at all.

    [00:01:08] That moment and the loss of that relationship thinking he had been doing it right, sent him on a quest of sorts. To figure out who was the man that he needed to truly be for himself and for a partner. Interestingly, through exploration contemporary authors and research, it was actually the time tested wisdoms that really began to sing to him and lead him on his own authentic path.

    [00:01:33] We're to dive into some of that wisdom today. My guest today is Elliot Katz, author of two books, including his first being the Strong Man a Woman Wants. Timeless wisdoms on being a man. He's been interviewed on more than 200 radio shows, television broadcasts. He's a coach, a guide, and somebody to be aware of in the path of men.

    [00:01:54] So now let's dive in. Let's discuss this swinging pendulum of what men are meant to and can be, especially in their relationships. And go on this walk with Elliot Katz. One of the ways that, you know, we were actually even just kind of getting into a little bit of this as I was sharing some background with you about the show.

    [00:02:12] We're getting into a little bit of some of the stories of what has led us here, and one of the things I would love to hear is if you could tell us a bit about maybe some of that journey, that experience that really shaped you into who you are today, most likely, probably reflective of the work you do

    [00:02:27] Elliott: as well.

    [00:02:28] The book is about relationships and, and what men need to learn to have a successful relationship. And I was married for 10 years and then I got divorced. And like a lot of men, I was kind of surprised. I thought I was being a good man, a good, uh, a good guy. And it came to the point of asking myself, what do I have to learn from this?

    [00:02:45] And there were some interesting experiences along the way. One, it was when I was getting divorced, I was invited by a men's group. To a session they were having with a family law lawyer and I thought, well, I could learn things. And then I thought, well, I'm not gonna fit in. These guys were probably domineering and controlling.

    [00:03:01] I was a good guy. My wife didn't appreciate what a good guy I was, so I went to the session. They were all the nicest guys you could ever meet. They all couldn't understand why their wives didn't appreciate them. And it's interesting. So when I blamed the other person, I knew I was right. But when they did it, I thought, well, what should you have done differently?

    [00:03:18] What do you have to learn from this? So then I said to myself, well, if I asked them that question, I should be asking myself the same question. So I really set out on a journey to learn what does it mean to be a man in a relationship? And I started talking to other men. And the more I talk to these other men, the more I realize we're all confused.

    [00:03:37] A lot of us really are confused. And then I read books on relationships. They really didn't say much to me, and it's only when I went to sort of the timeless wisdom that had been written down over the centuries. I was blown away cuz I, I realize what I learned coincided with what I heard. Women complaint is lacking in men today.

    [00:03:55] They don't show leadership, they don't make decisions, they don't take responsibility. And the fascinating thing is, you know, here I thought I'm the only one in the world in this situation. It's so crazy. Only, only me. But then I, as I began to read and I saw that, you know, Men have been struggling with this since the beginning of mankind.

    [00:04:14] Really. I mean, the book's not religious, but in the book of King David. King David has come to the end of his life and he is giving advice to his son Solomon, who will become King Solomon. And the first words of advice are, be strong and become a man. I'm thinking, I think I'm the only one in the world who doesn't know this.

    [00:04:32] And here. 3000 years ago, king David is teaching this to his son. So I really sat down on a journey to learn, you know, more and more about what it means to be a man. A lot of teachings that I've written over the centuries and the most important thing I learned was be a leader. I remember reading Dr. Spock, Dr.

    [00:04:48] Benjamin Spock, who wrote one of the bestselling books on of the 20th century on parenting, and he said, if you want to be a good father, a good husband, and a good father, you have to be a leader and a role model in your family. And I thought I wasn't a leader. I wasn't a leader at all. I didn't know how to be a leader.

    [00:05:06] I came to realize there was a lot I had to learn. And the interesting thing is, is the more I looked around the men around me and says, we all have to learn this. We all think we'll go out and earn a good living. We'll work hard, and we'll just come home and do whatever our wives tell us. We're being such non-controlling good guys, and the women are frustrated with us.

    [00:05:26] As I learned it, you really have to show your share of leadership where the woman has no respect for you because you, she really wants that she, she wants to feel safe and protected, and if you're not protecting her, if you're not taking charge, if you're leaving everything to her, she gets very frustrated as one woman said to me.

    [00:05:44] If I always have to tell a man what to do, it makes me feel like he's a child and I'm his mother and I don't wanna be his mother, and I don't wanna be intimate with a man. I see as a child. There was a lot, a lot of learning that went on.

    [00:05:57] Luke: I wanna dive into, you know, some of those timeless wisdoms and everything else.

    [00:06:00] But I think the first question that appears to be, how do we not know? Right? Like, how do we not know what, you know, how to be a man, how to, to lead in that type of capacity. I'm curious cuz in my own journeys, and while it was a a, a slightly different journey for myself, I remember in those early days as I started to look at what was available out there, what books could I read, who could I listen to, et cetera.

    [00:06:24] It was a really confusing landscape. And I wasn't very clear as to where to go for some of the things that I was looking to learn. And so I'm curious, you know, how, how is it that we don't know? And maybe even so, what was some of that before you found the timeless wisdom? I. What was almost some of the confusing path that you had to go through to be able to, to recognize the truths that you

    [00:06:44] Elliott: then found?

    [00:06:45] That's a great question. Well, first of all, I think one of the things that, you know, men here over and over today is like, you know, do what your wife. Tells you to do. I mean, I, I even met with a psychologist once who was telling me, that's what he tells men, just do what your wife says. I said, well, you don't really mean that, do you?

    [00:07:01] But I think the bigger question is why don't men today know? And that that is such a gigantic question. I think there's lots of reasons, a lot of so societal reasons. So there's a lot of divorce. A lot of men grow up without male role models. Their fathers are absent, or even if their fathers are present, their fathers themselves may be passive and.

    [00:07:19] Art really an example of a a male leader. You know, we watched television and then television for so long. Portrayed as incapable buffoons. I mean, it's all nice to laugh, but people are influenced by that. They think that's what it means to be a man. Like you get an mess and you need your wife to rescue and you know they go to school.

    [00:07:38] Most teachers are women actually a lot written on this. One of, one of the theories that I've read that makes sense to me is like they talk about industrialization, where in, let's say in the 19th century, Families lived on farms. They lived in, you know, small towns and maybe they ran a business, but with industrialization, people moved to the cities and fathers would get up early in the morning and go to work and come home.

    [00:08:01] At the end of the day, exhausted. And the boys spent most of their time with their mothers or other women. They didn't spend like, Let's, in the past, let's say if a son helped his father on the farm, he mm-hmm. His father had an influence on him just by his presence. Just by watching him. Cuz that's really, boys need to watch men.

    [00:08:19] It's, we talk about male role model. It's really, it's teaching them. You talk to your son, you could tell 'em things, of course, but a lot of it's just watching him, watching how he does things, how, watching how he treats other men, watching how he relates to other men, watching how he treats women, how, watching how he.

    [00:08:33] He treats your, his mothers so, so he can learn. And that has been so lost. So men today, they really, really are confused and so many men will say to me, I'll just do whatever my wife tells me. She should be happy and she's not happy and I can't understand why.

    [00:08:54] Luke: Just a quick add on that I wanted to make here. How often is it that we have heard the phrase, happy wife, happy life. Make your wife happy and all be good. This is totally dated. It's dismissive to both any woman as well as any man are men supposed to be just focused on appeasing their partner are women meant to be controlling their men, their partners?

    [00:09:17] This doesn't portray, in the least the wholeness and or greatness of any man or woman, nor the complexity and sophistication of any of this. It's also terribly misleading. Happiness is a temporary state. It's fleeting, and if we fix our sights on just keeping our partners happy, there's no depth to it.

    [00:09:35] Relationships are forged through standing with each other in the tough times through getting to know what supports our partners in being the best and most authentic version of themselves that help each other grow, that have the strength to say what needs saying, but in ways that can be heard. And appreciated and understood, not sugarcoated, and certainly not to simply appease your partner.

    [00:09:59] Relationships are our greatest vehicles for growth. Yeah, they can absolutely bring tremendous joy, a much more sustainable happiness as it were. Relationships require. We get to know ourselves, our partners, and how we want to show up for ourselves and our relationships across the whole range of experiences that we're going to have.

    [00:10:30] You know, it's interesting when you talk about a very interesting shift there with industrialization, which is a, you know, a, a really unique perspective, right? Is that now the, at least, especially in the early 19 hundreds, maybe the man was no longer in the house. As frequently we're seeing them go off to to work as it were.

    [00:10:46] In that capacity, we're not there interacting, whether it be on the farm or at the local business or or what case. We lose some of that cuz I've gone back and also looked at it from the perspective that we don't have the same rights of passage and even the rights of initiation that, you know, have been part of different communities and certainly the indigenous communities for thousands of years.

    [00:11:06] And we don't have those same type of. Passages that we go through. It was interesting to me in your book that you used the grandfather. Actually is part of the way to convey everything. And I was wondering if you could actually speak about that choice that you made because I've, I found that very interesting cuz that also rings very true to me of the presence of grandfather energy in a very different capacity that is lost right now.

    [00:11:31] The

    [00:11:31] Elliott: way I pictured it is that, you know, the main character Michael, he wasn't taught by his father important traits of being a man. It's because at those teachings as if they skipped a generation, so he had to go to his grandfather. Cuz his father wasn't able to teach him, so his grandfather. Taught him the important traits.

    [00:11:49] Show leadership, make decisions, know what you want, step forward. Don't just step back when there's a situation. That's why I chose a grandfather is like, yeah, because he didn't learn it. You know, like I was saying before, it's also the media that, like all the messages you hear in the media, you know, men are toxic, men are controlling, men are abusive.

    [00:12:08] It's like, well man says I don't wanna be any of those things. I don't wanna be accused of being controlling, so I'll just do whatever my wife tells me. And why isn't she happy? It's very sad. I mean, These messages are like so many divorces that I see, like they, they're not necessary. I talk to men, you know, so many will say to me, if I had known this when I was married, maybe I wouldn't be divorced.

    [00:12:31] I probably wouldn't be. I didn't know this. I didn't know this. So they're not terrible people. They just were not taught mm-hmm. What they need to do to be a man. I've had women say that to me, said, and my husband had known this. I wouldn't, we wouldn't be divorced today. It's sad. It's sad. So let's, let's keep people together.

    [00:12:48] If they just need to learn how they have to be as a man and their wives will be happy, just learn it and do it and you'll see the difference. Yeah,

    [00:12:57] Luke: it's a great point also that you brought in, in terms of the media because whether it be for entertainment value or whether it be for the news or otherwise, It tends to be the polarizing type of stereotypes and characters.

    [00:13:08] Cause that's what creates the entertainment or that's what creates the attention. And in reality, that's either one far end of the spectrum or the other far end of the spectrum. And it's not the truth of, of actually what's going on for the middle, the very, very large middle of the population. I'm curious if to get to, you know, kind of what it is that we need to know.

    [00:13:28] I'm also curious if you could speak to what are some of the, almost the symptoms or the warning signs. So that when a man looks around his life, when he looks at his relationships, he looks at at his partner, what is it that he may need to start to recognize of there's some warning signs here that I need to pay attention to that'll direct me to take a look at myself.

    [00:13:48] Elliott: Well, I think it's, you know, it's lack of respect because it's like I was saying, a man when he thinks I'll just work hard, I'll provide, well, you know, I'll come home. Whatever she asks me to do, I'll do it. And she has no respect for me. Like, aren't I doing what I'm supposed to do? So when a woman is losing respect for you, It's like you're not doing the right thing.

    [00:14:09] And like the men will think, well, if I just do it more, or if I just ask her, well, what do you want me to do? And I tell men, don't ask her that. That's exactly why she's losing respect for you. She doesn't want to tell you what to have to do. And you know, I tell men, like even small decisions, like, you know, so many times a woman will ask a man to make a decision about something.

    [00:14:30] It really doesn't matter to him. It's like really A or B. Either one is fine. I said, you know what? When she asks you that, don't say whatever you want. Banish those words from your vocabulary to say. Make a decision. If she ask, calls you at work and she asks you, what do you want for a supper, pizza or lasagna?

    [00:14:50] Tell her it doesn't make a difference. It it's easy to make a decision because she wants your input. She's asking you because she wants to know what you want, so don't say whatever you want. Because what she wants is to know what you want. All these things like that. Even like planning a vacation. Men will say, here, you planned the vacation.

    [00:15:06] I'll pay for it. Isn't that great? No. She wants you to plan it. She wants you to take charge of doing it. So just getting back to warning sides that she shows no respect for you and, and you really can't understand why. I like to tell people it's a mirror, like, you don't like that she has no respect for you, but what is it telling you about yourself?

    [00:15:23] You could say, well, she should be more respectful. I do so much for her. But ask yourself, what is it telling me about myself? How do I gain respect? Her respect and, and the sad thing is, like I've been saying along is like, men just don't know. They just think they're doing the right thing and you don't end up divorced.

    [00:15:40] So, Search out and read some wisdom. Yeah.

    [00:15:44] Luke: I appreciate you pointing it out as a mirror, right? Because so often when, especially in our, our most intimate relationships, we unfortunately know how to trigger each other really well. We know how to get it under each other's skin pretty well, and it also can then just even be those little things that start to kind of nip away at the trust, the respect, even the intimacy of a relationship.

    [00:16:07] But if we take a moment to say, well, whatever's going on here, I don't know. I can't change how this is going for my partner right now, but I can take a look at myself. I can use this as a moment that's mirroring something back to me that I can work on. And let me do a hundred percent of my half right, a hundred percent of my half of this relationship, and if I can keep doing that, then it'll invite a different space.

    [00:16:31] It'll invite a different conversation, it'll invite some different energy, and then we can see where we stand. What

    [00:16:35] Elliott: you're saying is right. It's just, you know, there's a quote that I, I found it said, the closer the relationship, the clearer the mirror. Mm-hmm. So it's like you might say, well, I ha I have all these friends.

    [00:16:44] We get along so well. But your wife is the person that's closest to you and her feedback is telling you things that you have to learn. And you can't just say, well, she has to change. But she's not changing. See, you've gotta change cuz you wanna change the situation. It's like going on that journey to say, well, what do I have to do differently?

    [00:17:02] Like, it's like we're saying they hear all these messages, they think they're doing the right thing. You gotta learn that wisdom. Mm-hmm. That fathers for generations taught their sons that's been lost of this generation. Yeah,

    [00:17:13] Luke: I like that. What do you know? Just even that reflection of what do I need to do differently?

    [00:17:17] Because, you know, you went back before of what were some of the things that we truly are trying to step into as men? And you described leadership decision making responsibility. And when we ask ourselves what is it that I need to do differently, we are taking responsibility. At least again, like for our half of where we are.

    [00:17:34] So let me ask then, with the path that you've traveled with the timeless wisdoms that you connected to, what are some of those things? Meaning what is that? Almost image of being a man as it were that you have found is what creates more respect. It creates more honor of the relationship. It creates more connection to the relationship.

    [00:17:54] What is it that has been your

    [00:17:55] Elliott: findings? Well, as I said to me, like the key word I keep in mind is, is leadership. Even when women ask me like, okay, summarize your book. What does your book say it means to be a man? I said, it means to be a leader, and that means take charge. It means doesn't mean being controlling and domineering and all this stuff, forget about it, but you see a situation.

    [00:18:14] Step forward and deal with it. I remember one woman I was talking to who she told me she divorced her husband because whenever there was a challenging situation, he waited for her to deal with it and she just felt like he was a child. But I'm sure for him, he thought, well, I'm being this modern man who believes in gender equality.

    [00:18:32] Step forward. And so it's like you see a difficult situation, step forward, take charge, and it makes the woman feel so safe and protected. It makes her love you so much. It's like that's what she wants. She wants a man who takes charge and the decision to be made. You're not imposing your decision. You can say, well, I think we should do this here.

    [00:18:50] What do you think? Instead of saying, asking, what should we do? Don't say that. Yeah, come forward. Don't come empty handed. Make a decision, say, This situation, I think this is what we need to do. And if she has input, that's great, but don't, don't just leave it to her. Don't think you're being too passive.

    [00:19:07] Don't think, well, I'm showing her I believe in gender equality. So to me the main thing is leadership. And you know, an interesting thing. Which I talk about in the book is, is on my journey to learn what it means to be a man. I learned what it means to be manly, literally by looking it up in the dictionary.

    [00:19:23] So you know the word virtue. One of the meanings of the word virtue is manliness. Ver means man. It's like, mm-hmm. The original meaning was manly strength a man. And what does it mean to be manly? It means to have courage, to be decisive, to be self-reliant, to have integrity. That's the dictionary definition of manly.

    [00:19:39] I. Well, these are goals that I have to work towards. Mm-hmm. And, and developing in myself. And it makes you very attractive to a woman, a woman who sees a man who can make a decision, who has, has self-control, who doesn't fly off the, you know, doesn't get angry. One of the things I say in the book is like, Being strong is not about controlling others, it's about controlling yourself.

    [00:20:01] Mm-hmm. Man, who can do that? That's very attractive to a woman. And my journey. Like I was like, wow, there are all these things that I didn't know. No one taught me. How did I get to the age of 40 and not know these things? Yeah. Well, I had to learn them and now like I was saying, my goal is to share the, so they don't end up divorced.

    [00:20:20] Luke: Well, I appreciate that and I appreciate the reflection of that. You know, when we are meant to be strong as leaders and we go off of that idea of this does not mean to be controlling, but instead to have self-control, and it begins to put the emphasis where it needs to be. I've often reframed things of, listen, there are certain practices that you need to do for yourself.

    [00:20:43] This is not about being self-centered. It's about having a centered self. And that's very much, you know, what I hear is at the heart of this, I think it's part of the conundrum that we see right now in terms of all the messages that are out there of, you know, we want you to be a more vulnerable man, but we also want you to be strong.

    [00:21:01] We want you to be decisive, but we also want you to be considerate of our needs and at our perspective of things. And what I'm finding, and I'm curious your reaction to this, what I'm seeing is that it almost gets presented as an either or. You need to be this or that as opposed to something that's integrated, that's balanced in the way that it comes across.

    [00:21:21] And I'm curious for your perspective or or what you have found. Cuz I see a lot of that almost like swinging between different extremes because it's, it's actually that middle way that is very difficult for us to figure out because it seems like paradoxes. But they're really

    [00:21:36] Elliott: not, right? No, they're not at all.

    [00:21:38] And and it's really a balance. Like you say, one of the things I quote in my book is it says, if you always follow your wife's advice, your life will be hell yeah. If you, if you're just, cuz you have no life, but at the same time, you should make an effort to listen to your wife. So it's a balance. You should listen to your wife and.

    [00:21:53] That doesn't mean you just automatically do everything. She says, you should also make decisions. And if there are things that she knows better, well, okay, you could listen to her. So it's, it's a balance. And you know, this whole thing about being strong and vulnerable, this, this is his latest word, vulnerable.

    [00:22:08] So I, I was coaching a fellow and he says, and he's divorced and he, he says, oh, women say they want a man who's vulnerable. So he goes out on dates and he spills his guts out on them. And they say, then they friend zone him. I said, They don't want you to spill your guts. They wanna show that you're strong.

    [00:22:26] But what does it mean to be vulnerable? To me, it means that you're willing to take risks of leadership because when a man isn't willing to take a risk of leadership, because you may get criticized, you may be wrong, and people will criticize you. That's not being a man. Be vulnerable and say, okay, I think this is what we're gonna do.

    [00:22:42] And yeah, you, you're leaving yourself open to criticism and being wrong, but that's life. But, and at the same time, you listen to what your wife says, a few years ago there was this word, men should be sensitive. So I said, well, sensitive. What does it mean to be sensitive? Does it mean, you know, you spill your guts out, you come home crying every day.

    [00:23:00] Oh, I had such a terrible day where no, that's not what it means. Be sensitive in terms of. Be sensitive how what you do impacts other people that's being sensitive. But if you're being sensitive, like you're acting like feminine or, or like women aren't attracted to that. Yeah.

    [00:23:16] Luke: That's a, an important kind of distinction in using a word like sensitive because what you are describing is very much of how are you sensing of your environment, how are you sensing what's going on in the relationship?

    [00:23:28] It's not the pejorative, oh, you're sensitive. It has been used out there. It means something very different. I'm curious for you, as you kind of navigated this path for yourself, how did you find that balance? How is it that ultimately you were able to work your way through so that you could understand being balanced in this way looks like this to me?

    [00:23:49] That it feels like this to me?

    [00:23:51] Elliott: That's a great question. You know, I started from one extreme of being, you know, Passive and indecisive and thinking, you know, if I just do whatever she tells me to do, you know, it didn't happen overnight. You sort of catch yourself sort of stepping back when you should be stepping forward.

    [00:24:07] If there's a decision to be made, you just realize, push yourself and make a decision and, and if she disagrees, well, okay, maybe she has a better idea. I know a few years ago I went out with a woman and she says to me, You date, well, what are you doing? And I thought she was making fun of me. So I said, I said, are you making fun of me?

    [00:24:25] She said, no, you're a good dater. What are you doing? So I said, well, I'll tell you what I'm doing. I took all the new ideas about dating and I pushed 'em outta my head and I went back to the old fashioned ways. You know, whenever I ask you out, I have a plan. I don't say I would like to go out. And then she says, yeah, okay.

    [00:24:40] What do you wanna do? And I said, I don't know. What do you wanna do? Men don't ever say that. I have a plan. Now, if she has something better to do, we could do that. But I never come empty handed, and she liked that. I don't say. Wanna go out tea? Where do you wanna go? Well, I say, I think we should go to this restaurant.

    [00:24:55] They have great lasagne. Yeah. What do you think? Okay. Either she wants that or she doesn't. But I don't come empty handed. That was my journey. And now my girlfriend, now she has a challenging situation. I step forward and I say, here, let me help you with it. I think this is what we need to do. And she really likes it.

    [00:25:10] When I take charge, sort of wasn't a a swinging balance. It was sort of just making progress in my own life, catching myself that I wouldn't fall back in my old ways and just say, Hey, you know, one thing I tell men and I. Kept reminding myself, she wants you to show leadership. She doesn't want you controlling.

    [00:25:25] She doesn't want you to be at tyrant or abusive. No, of course not. But she wants you to show leadership because it makes her feel safe and protected. That's what I learned from my girlfriend and from the men I coach that they tell me that girlfriend say the same thing. Make a decision. Those small decisions make them, that makes her feel safe and protected.

    [00:25:42] It was never like I went to the other extreme of like, oh, I became this controlling, tired. Oh, I have to go back to the middle. I never reached that part. Yeah, yeah. Is really a progress getting to the midpoint of realizing, Hey, look how, look how they respond so much more positively to me. Now I understand it.

    [00:25:59] They really want that man who takes charge and can make a decision, makes them feel safe and protected. And really men today weren't taught that. It's very sad.

    [00:26:07] Luke: Hmm. What I also hear in that journey is that as you would start to integrate new ways of showing up by new ways, I mean that, you know, in in new tendencies, new patterns for yourself.

    [00:26:19] There was also a circling back of, of reflection. Right. So it's to reflect on what is it that was true in this experience. What was it that seemed like it was more honest, more authentic, more connected, more of a leader in the way that I wish to be, and that seems to be in alignment with others. And then what went off, what didn't go as planned, what you know, it cetera.

    [00:26:40] And I just kind of call that out because. We often hear, you know, we've gotta learn from our experiences as it were just a, in an overly simplistic way. But part of learning from our experiences is we've gotta give ourselves space to reflect, to contemplate what is it that we have been through so we can make intentional and, and conscious adjustments to the way that things are moving forward.

    [00:27:00] Elliott: And also when, when you get a positive response from a woman, when you're acting that way, you say, yeah, look at that. I didn't know this 20 years ago. But it, it really, you get a positive response. Say, Hey, this is what I needed to do. I needed to do this 30 years ago. And

    [00:27:14] Luke: what I'm also hearing is that this is, you know, we talked about it, you know, we've got these different extremes.

    [00:27:18] We're trying to find a more balanced and integrative manner. And it's almost that we're. Using some ageless wisdom that's there while combining that with sort of a, a new paradigm of how it's that we can show up. Cuz even in some of the more timeless wisdom, there was a little bit more of that. You know, men need to be men and we need to be strong and we need to be very, very clearly control of, of what's going on.

    [00:27:41] And we're not swinging the pendulum back to that. But it is learning the lessons of, as you said, the decisiveness that's there, the level of responsibility that is there, and integrating some of the new kind of paradigm stuff of being much more open, much more flexible in the way that we do things. But to start with a plan to start with that proactivity, to start with that type of direction, and then be open sensing of what's around you at any given time.

    [00:28:06] So it creates this new integrative kind of paradigm of, of leadership.

    [00:28:10] Elliott: Well look, I'll, I'll tell you. You know, I thought that until you really go back to the old sources and you realize you, a lot of this stuff is like written 2000 years ago, fi it's really was written to me, truly old stuff. Me. Yeah. It's really, it says, one of the things I quoted in the book says 2000 years ago, says, A man who's ruled by his wife, his life is not life.

    [00:28:29] It's as if he's not alive. I said, Oh, I thought men were, you know, ruled the rules back then. And even if you look in this story and the book is not religious, but I, the story of Adam and Eve just sort of blew me away and that's why I included it. You know that one commandment, they're in the Garden of Eden.

    [00:28:43] Don't eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. What happened? You know, Eve eats it. She precious Adam to eat it and he eats it. And then God says some, Adam, did you eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge? I commanded you not to eat. And what does he do? Does he man up and take responsibility? No. He says, the woman you sent me gave it to me and I ate it.

    [00:29:00] I said I couldn't believe it. I did that I, you know, he gave into something he knew was wrong and then he blamed his wife. I said, whoa, nothing has changed. There are stories in the past of men who were, you know, controlling and. Strong. But you know, if you look back, it says this is something the men have had to, men have to learn and they've always had to learn it.

    [00:29:21] They can't just give in and blame their wives. Like I remember when I first got divorced, I got together with a friend of mine who had also recently separated, and he told me that his wife had run up $50,000 on the credit cards. And I thought, How could you let that go on? You have children, you weren't taking responsibility.

    [00:29:39] Mm-hmm. But that's what he was doing. The same thing he was. He gave into something he knew was wrong, and then he blamed his wife and nobody had any sympathy for him. So it's something that we have to learn. I said, yes, you know, it's true. In the past there were controlling men. But a lot of them like still have to learn the same things that we have to learn today.

    [00:29:57] That's what I learned. In the,

    [00:29:59] Luke: the work that you're doing with clients, and again, maybe you also from your own personal experience, what is it that we need to face within ourselves? Right, because there's that tendency, you just give a great example of whatever's going on. It's, oh, well, I gave into it. And blame, blame, blame, blame, blame, right?

    [00:30:14] And so we see a lot of that in relationship. We also see a lot of shame. We also see a lot of guilt. And I'm curious because this isn't just about learning something that's part of this equation, but what is it that we as men, need to turn within and start to face within ourselves? So that we actually can apply what it is that is

    [00:30:32] Elliott: there to learn.

    [00:30:33] I think from my own experience and from coaching people, it's really about trusting your own judgment. It's about realizing, you know, you're not sure, you think, well, I'll just give into what she wants, or maybe she knows better than me, or, or other people know better than me. I think part of leadership and part of being a man is trusting your judgment if something is wrong.

    [00:30:52] It's wrong. You have to stand up for the sake of your family. If you know, if you're getting into debt and you think, oh, you know, or she wants this, she wants that, I'll just go along. For the sake of peace, but ultimately you get into financial stress. It, it could destroy your marriage and destroy your family.

    [00:31:08] You weren't using your judgment to say, no, this is wrong. I can't let it go on because, because I wanna protect our marriage. I wanna protect our family. So to me that would say, trust your judgment. If you think something is wrong, don't just think, well, maybe she knows better than me. I'll go along with her.

    [00:31:24] I'll blame her if it goes wrong. No, if it's wrong and your judgment is saying, this is wrong, I have to stand for, you know, stand up and have some backbone and do what I believe is right.

    [00:31:36] Luke: It's interesting cuz what I'm hearing in that is to trust ourselves in that way. To be able to trust ourselves, right.

    [00:31:42] Is a key piece of this. And to be able to look at what are some of the things that have contributed to you no longer trusting yourself. What are the fears that happen to be there? Is there the fear of conflict? Is that fear of rejection? Is it just the fear of. If I push back, if I stand up in that way, what repercussions are there going to be and I don't know what that's gonna look like, or is life gonna get tougher?

    [00:32:03] Is it gonna strain the relationship beyond repair? And so very often we're working through any of those number of fears that are actually preventing us from being more trusting of self, from being more discerning in the way that we show up. Once I think we're able to overcome that, and this is some of the stuff that you've been alluding to, is that when it comes to leading, that also means learning.

    [00:32:25] Not just what these traits are, but learning how to communicate in a way that is much more effective. Meaning assert what you need to assert and then listen the way that you need to listen. And how is it that we find the balance even in some of the skills that we need to learn so that as we know something is off, as we know something needs to be addressed, to be able to muster that courage, that virtue, to be able to face those things, to turn towards those things.

    [00:32:49] And then what are the skills that I need to be more effective? In that particular situation so that it's not me just kind of blathering out whatever it is that's off my mind. Right. But to be skillful in the way that we, we enter in

    [00:33:03] Elliott: Luke, you're absolutely right cuz in my own journey, as I tell you, when I read that, that passage in the Dr.

    [00:33:09] Spock and I realized I didn't have a clue how to be a leader. I worked in government at the time and they had internal courses on leadership. The most important thing I remember the teacher saying is, you have to talk to a person the way they need to be spoken to, not the way you wanna talk to them. So interestingly, my job in government was writing speeches for politicians.

    [00:33:27] I knew that very well in my job that I had to think about what the audience needs to hear to be inspired to wanna support the politicians' leadership and their vision for what they wanna do in the future. So I knew that in my job. But I didn't apply it in my marriage. So that kind of communication applies and everything.

    [00:33:45] So you wanna tell your wife something, you want her to support what you wanna do. You have to think about what does she need to hear, not what you wanna say, like, stop doing this, or what are you need to do this? Think what? How? What does she need to hear to support what you wanna do? And I mean, sometimes I've experienced this and I tell other people, like, sometimes your wife is undermining you.

    [00:34:07] So just say to her, would you please support me on this cuz this is really important for the following reasons. If you say, don't undermine me, you know, she'll push back on that, but mm-hmm. You're asking for what you want. Say it in a positive way, what you want her to do, not what you want her to stop doing.

    [00:34:20] Right. So those are one of the things. But there many things, it's really like, think, think before you speak. Mm-hmm. What does she need to hear? She's a woman, she's not a man, she's different than you. What does she need to hear to, to support what you wanna do?

    [00:34:33] Luke: To add further description to what you just said is what is it that maybe she needs to hear?

    [00:34:38] What is it that maybe she needs to feel is another part of that. Right. Right, right. Because you know, that's the other thing that as men, we can lay out the most beautiful, logical cases to what you know, it's this, this, this, and here's all the reasons why. But where are you? Meaning, where's your heart, where's your emotions?

    [00:34:55] Are you letting your partner actually truly feel you and connect to you so they can feel the importance of something? They can feel? What's going on for you as to why you may want this or may, why you may be requesting this of what you need? It's not just the logic, it's it's the emotion and, and everything that goes into it to let them.

    [00:35:14] Feel you let them see you as well

    [00:35:16] Elliott: as let them hear you. Right, right, right, right. You have to think when you're gonna speak. You have to say, and not just women, but generally people respond to emotional statements more than logic. So to say that you have to think, what does she need to hear that will inspire her to support you?

    [00:35:29] Definitely

    [00:35:29] Luke: curious your reaction to, to this cuz it's a word that I've now started to use a lot more often in talking to men about leadership and kind of setting this as something that helps 'em understand the qualities that I think you're describing here today as well. Is it very often I don't just describe it as leader, I describe it as being a steward.

    [00:35:47] Being a very good steward of the relationship, being a good steward of the family, being a good steward within your business, because to me there's just this additional understanding that you're both leading, but you also have this other way of looking at the whole of what's going on for the health of it, for the strength of it, for the protection of it, and it evokes a slightly different, I guess relationship to what that image is of stepping forward as a man in this type of capacity.

    [00:36:17] And I'm just curious if you, you hear that word steward in this, this way. What else? Maybe that brings up for you, or maybe even you push

    [00:36:23] Elliott: back on. I haven't heard that word being used, but I think it's, it is an appropriate word because when you think of a steward, you think of someone who's guiding the ship.

    [00:36:30] You know, who's thinking what's best for the family. You know who's, who's concerned. I remember reading one woman wrote, when a Man. It doesn't show leadership, whereas isn't a steward. It's like being on a rudderless ship. The ship is just drifting all over the place. So, yeah, and that's a good word. I'm gonna start using it.

    [00:36:47] Luke: There you go. As we start to bring kind of the, the conversation around, and I'm, I'm curious for you. If cuz you connected to some timeless wisdom, that's part of what just really directed you of reconnecting to what it meant to be that man, to step into that role as leader in that capacity. And I guess I'm kind of curious, you know, if we look out, I don't know, maybe another 50 or a hundred years and we get to look back on this era that we are in now, I'm curious almost like what do you hope has become the story of man.

    [00:37:21] In this era, how do you hope our story, you know, evolves over these next 50 to a hundred years compared to where we feel like man may be

    [00:37:30] Elliott: right now? That's a great question. I hope that we're sort of the pendulum is, is shifting back. And I think it is because as I, you know, I talked to more and more men and there's more and more groups coming together to realize we have to act like men.

    [00:37:43] All, all the things. We've been told over the past 40 years, uh, just have misguided us and we have to go back to just because it's not working. I mean, there's so many divorces, so many children from broken homes, and it's just, it's not working. We don't want that. Nobody gets married wanting to get divorced, so we need to learn this.

    [00:38:00] And I think it's happening. Like, you know what, when I wrote the book, I was writing it for myself and my friends, and, you know, I thought, okay, well then maybe men in North America need, well, it's been translated into 25 languages around the world, and most recent it's, it's being published in, uh, Saudi Arabia and Arabic, and it's published like Brazil, where you think the whole image, but chisel originated.

    [00:38:22] So I think people are looking for wisdom. They're realizing it's not working. I mean, that's the first realization. You have to realize what all these things have been told not working. So they're looking for wisdom and. I hope that, you know, we will just move forward and fathers will teach their sons this and hopefully things will shift back to sort of more healthier kind of situation for men that father men will be good fathers and good husbands and women will be happy and they'll be much fewer divorces and fewer children from broken homes.

    [00:38:52] That's, that's my hope and that's, I mean, that's my mission and I hope we get there. Yeah.

    [00:38:57] Luke: If you were to then just give a guidepost. Uh, sort of a north star for men to orient towards on this journey on their growth. What would

    [00:39:07] Elliott: it be? Well, the key thing really is, like I said before, I remember your wife really wants you to show leadership and she resents it, that you don't.

    [00:39:15] You know, I've had men say to me, I work so hard, I come home exhausted. I said, yeah, but you still gotta save some energy to be a leader in your home for the same reason you're working hard. You wanna have a nice life for your family, so keep this in mind. This is to have a nice life for your family.

    [00:39:29] Luke: Elliot, I wanna thank you for being here, for being on this walk. For anybody that's listening in tuning in today, what would be the best way of them being able to continue to follow your work or be

    [00:39:38] Elliott: in touch with you? Well, they can go to my website. It's. www.elliottkatz.com. It's E L L I O T T K A T z.com.

    [00:39:48] Take a look at my books when we're talking about being the strong man and woman wants timeless wisdom on being a man. I didn't mention this, but a lot of women read this book and said, well, how do I get my man to start wearing the pants at home? So I wrote another book called How to Get Your Man to Wear the Pants, so you don't have to.

    [00:40:03] You can read those books and if you want to email me, it's Elliott e l l i o t t r k a, tz aol.com. I'd be happy to talk to people, email people. Really, I'm on a mission. You don't wanna get divorced, it's not worth it.

    [00:40:17] Luke: Yeah. Elliot, once again, thank you so much for being here on this walk.

    [00:40:21] Elliott: Okay. Thanks for having me.

    [00:40:22] Luke,

    [00:40:25] Luke: once again, I wanna thank you for tuning in to. On this walk by all means. Please go ahead. Check out Elliot katz@elliotkatz.com. And I also once again, wanna thank you for being an active listener of On this Walk. I'm gonna ask that you pay it forward, meaning that if there is anything that you have heard in today's episode or past episodes that spark with you, that you know, create a thought or a question that you're going to continue to walk with.

    [00:40:51] Do me a favor, bring that thought, bring that question into a conversation with another man. Pay it forward. Invite them into that conversation, and by all means, please share the podcast, share where you got it from. It's a big piece of how we end up growing this show. So I love that you've subscribed.

    [00:41:10] Please, by all means, if you haven't rated or reviewed the show, please do so. But above all, this is meant to be the beginning of a conversation, the conversation that you get to continue. So please pay it forward. Bring those thoughts, those insights, those questions, the things that you're walking with.

    [00:41:26] Bring them to a conversation with another man and see where your walk leads you.

Feliz Borja